Statement of Rafael Antonio Perez, Sept. 22, 1999

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STATEMENT OF

RAFAEL ANTONIO PEREZ,

TAKEN AT THE METRO TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY (MTA) BUILDING, LOS ANGELES,
CALIFORNIA.

IN RE: CASE NO. BA109900
People vs. Rafael Antonio Perez

APPEARANCES BY:

Richard Rosenthal
Deputy District Attorney
Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office
Special Investigations Division
210 West Temple Street
17th Floor
Los Angeles, California 90012

John Cook
Detective Sergeant
Los Angeles Police Department
Robbery-Homicide Division Task Force
1 Gateway Plaza
Los Angeles, California 90012

Mark Thompson
Detective
Los Angeles Police Department
Robbery-Homicide Division Task Force
1 Gateway Plaza
Los Angeles, California 90012

Jeff Pailet
Detective
Los Angeles Police Department
Robbery-Homicide Division Task Force
1 Gateway Plaza
Los Angeles, California 90012

Stan Nalywaiko
Detective
Los Angeles Police Department
Robbery-Homicide Division Task Force
1 Gateway Plaza
Los Angeles, California 90012

Winston Kevin McKesson
Attorney at Law
315 S. Beverly Drive
Suite 305
Beverly Hills, California 90212-4309

REPORTED BY:

Sara A. Mahan
Stenographic Reporter
Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office
C.S.R. No. 10647

sam/99-031

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 22, 1999; 1540

MR. ROSENTHAL: All right. It's, uh, 3:40 p.m. This is a continuation
of the interview of Rafael Perez. And we're here on this date Wednesday,
September 22nd, 1999.
Uh, conducting this interview is, uh, Detective Stan Nalywaiko,
and Sgt. John Cook. And I'm Richard Rosenthal. And, uh, Kevin McKesson is
present, as well as Rafael Perez.
And Mr. Perez, you are still under oath. Uhm, if I can -- well,
are we going to be doing any --
MR. MCKESSON: And also present is Mark Thompson.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Also present is Sgt. -- Detective or Sergeant?
SGT. THOMPSON: Sergeant.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Sgt. Mark Thompson. Also -- all from the Robbery-
Homicide Task Force.
RAFAEL ANTONIO PEREZ,
duly sworn and called as a witness, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSENTHAL:
Q Uhm, if I can just start this off, by going over quickly what
just, uhm, -- just did. And, actually, if you could open up again. We've --
we've place in front of Officer
-- or, uh, Mr. Perez, uh, the Rampart C.R.A.S.H. Arrest book.
Uh, on the front it says "December '92." And, uh, we asked you
to take a look at this book. In particular, we were looking for a case that
you referred to in the -- the second interview, last week, where it involved
Officer Cohan and a .45, and a third-striker gang member that you said was
a plant of a gun -- uhm, of a Colt .45.
And we asked you to take a look through the book. And you
actually did identify a -- an entry in this book; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. Do you still have that in front of you now?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Why don't you, just starting from the left of D.R.
number and booking number, tell us information?
A I believe -- I believe the D.R. No. is 970217621 or 627. The
booking number is 5229629. The date of arrest is May 3rd, 1997. The name
of the arrestee is -- last name, Espinola. First name Octavio. Uh, he was
booked, uh, for Ex-Con with a Gun, 12021 P.C. He was arrested in the area
of 3rd and Lucas by Officer Cohan and Brehm. The -- the person that was
arrested is an 18th Street gang member by the moniker of Tabo. Uh, and, uh,
-- and the weapon recovered is a .45 caliber, uh, blue steel Colt .45.
Q All right. Now, we have, uhm, -- we should have the arrest
report of this in the D.A. file on this case, surely. But, without looking
at the file or the arrest report, what is it that you remember about this?
Why is it that this entry you're able to identify as one involving a planted
gun?
A If it's -- if it's the same one, and if I remember it's the same
one, I believe that these -- this person was stopped in a vehicle, uh,
somewhere around 3rd and Lucas.
Uh, the reason it stands in my mind, 'cause I remember Cohan
telling me, or -- he actually showed me a .45 that he had, uh, maybe, uh, a
week before. And that -- I remember when he brought it the -- the body that
day, uh, he says, "Yeah, I got with him a .45." And as he's talking in
general, you know, and I'm looking at him like, yeah, sure. You know. Just
the usual, typical thing that we do.
You know, it was like, okay, yeah, he's going for a .45. And I
knew exactly it was the same gun that he had showed, uh, like a week prior.

Q Okay. So, he showed you the gun that he supposedly took the
arrestee?
A Prior to the, uh -- like the week prior. And also I saw it that
day when he was booking the -- the body.
Q Okay.
A And this is at 3rd and, uh -- uh, Union. At Rampart Detectives.
Q Okay. Now, how can you be sure that it was the same gun?
A Well, it looked like the same gun. It was a .45. Uh, and just
by general, you know, our, uh -- how would I say? Just the way we talk. You
can tell that it's like he's -- you know, when we talk sometimes we just say,
"Yeah, he's going." Meaning he's catching a case today. Uh, and it was that
gun. I mean -- you know, I mean I just know that it was that gun.
Q So, it was a tone of voice?
A Yeah, it -- our -- our usual tone of voice when someone's
catching a case.
Q And why don't you tell us, what does "catching a case" mean?
A Meaning he either did something, or Officer Cohan just wanted him
off the streets. Uh, maybe he just thought that this guy is a -- a big-time
player in this gang, 18th Street. He's probably -- if I remember correctly,
this guy's probably been around for a while. Uh, probably a parolee or
something like that. Probably a third-striker. And I think Cohan, uh, just
wanted him off the streets.
Q Okay. All right. You -- when you said "catching" you said
"catching a case"?
A Right.
Q Uhm --
A Meaning, uh, something's going to be planted, or something --
he's gonna be arrested illegally. Uh, an illegal arrest is gonna take place.

Q And, basically, we don't care what he's doing, we're gonna take
him into custody?
A Right.
Q Okay. Uh, there was a second one that you also identified in the
-- in the book. Uhm, you gave us a date. It was October 25th, of '96 arrest
date.
A October 25th?
Q Of '96.
A '96.
Q Why don't you go to that page?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. Why don't you give us the information on that entry?
A Uh, there is no D.R. number or booking number on the actual book
itself. But the arrest was on October 25th, 1996. The arrestee's name is
Hernandez. First name Miguel. He was also arrested for Ex-Con with a Gun,
12021(a) P.C. He was arrested at 3rd and Alvarado by Officer Durden and
Perez. He's an 18th Street gang member by the name of Chino. He was
arrested with a 92F Berretta .9 millimeter.
Uhm, --
Q And what do you remember about this? This one -- why is -- why
did this entry, uh, get your attention, first of all?
A The gun. The 92F Berretta. I remember that we had ran it. I
remember where we recovered it from, first of all. I remember when we ran
the gun, it came back stolen. Uh, and it came back to an L.A.P.D., uh,
sergeant that worked, uh, Internal Affairs. Yeah, I believe she works
Internal Affairs.
'Cause I remember, uh, afterwards when this guy was arrested, I
called her. Uh, you know, they gave me her home number. And I called her
at home. And she explained to me the circumstances. That, uh, someone had
broken into her house. She heard the noise, came downstairs, uhm, the person
who was inside, uh, ran off. Her gun was missing.
Q Okay. Now, uhm, we don't -- obviously, we don't -- we're going
to need to find the D.R. number and such. Any idea why there would be no
D.R. number and booking number in this book?
A Uhm, Officer Durden made the entry. He just didn't write the
booking number and D.R. number. I don't know why. But that's Durden's
handwriting.
Q And this was a plant of a gun?
A Yes, sir.
Q And where did you get the gun from?
A From another arrestee. A narcotics arrestee. Uhm, I believe,
uh, -- uh, a short time before that -- before the October 25th arrest.
Q And who was it who found -- actually received the gun, or
obtained the gun, initially? Was it you or Officer Durden?
A I believe, uh -- no, I believe I recovered the gun when the --
when the person was taken out of the car -- and what we usually do is search
the back seat of the car. The gun was found there.
Q And this --
A I found it.
Q This was a narcotics' suspect, right?
A This was a nar- -- uh, a narcotics' suspect that I believe [ **
CI #32 description redacted ** ].
Q All right. Now, it's a special -- there's a special allegation
for somebody engaged in narcotics trade who is also armed. Why wouldn't you
have just put the gun on the guy who had the gun?
A I think -- well, I know why. First of all, when the arrest was
made, obviously, the narcotics was recovered.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A The officers that patted him down, uhm, felt he was secure enough
to go ahead and just place him in the car. We got him in custody, and let's
move forward. When we get to Detectives, get him out of the car, and take
him in, and I just -- for some reason -- decide to go look, uh, in the back
seat. It's kind of embarrassing to tell the officers -- but we did tell them
-- but it's kind of embarrassing to bring it up in the unit that, hey,
listen, the person was searched, a gun was left on him in the back seat of
our car.
Uh, you know, so I just think that we just decided that we're not
gonna put the gun on him -- on -- on this person. We'll just leave it at
that.
Q Now, what -- and you're the one would have recovered it from the
back seat of the car?
A Yes, sir.
Q Uhm, at this point, you don't know who it was recovered from?
A Yes, I do. It was recovered from the person who we made the --
the arrest from.
Q I mean, any name or identifying information?
A No. I -- I think I do. But I'm gonna have to see a photo or
something. I'm -- or some report. Uh, I -- I think it was just a short time
prior to this arrest. October 25th -- maybe a week or two prior. Uh, but
that's something I guess we're gonna have to look into. Uh, some of these
packages, we're gonna need.
Q So, initially, just taking a look at the -- this recap book, you
cannot -- you can't identify that person, at this point?
A No. There's -- there's a couple of people here that it could be.
But we need to, uhm, -- I'm gonna need to see some photos, or the packages,
or something.
Q And who would have kept the gun? You or Officer Durden?
A I believe Office Durden kept that gun.
Q Why?
A Uhm, I'm really trying to think. He always kept the guns. Uh,
I -- I don't know where he always kept them. But I'm pretty sure he kept
that gun, too.
Q Uh, now, I'm not familiar with a -- it's a 9F?
A 92F.
Q All right.
A It's the same type of weapon a police officer carries. SGT.
COOK: Same as this.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: It's a pretty big weapon.
A Yes.
Q Okay. Uhm, why did you put it on Miguel Hernandez? Do you
recall?
A If I remember correctly, Mr. Hernandez had just paroled out of
jail. I -- I think. And I'm trying to remember why. But we had saw him
earlier that day. And he was in a gang area, around the -- uh, 3rd and
Alvarado, 6th and Alvarado, 6th and, uh, Westlake area. And we told him,
"Get out of here before you catch a case. You're on parole. Get out of
here."
He said, "All right. Yeah, all right. I'm gone." We went --
it was, uh, end of watch. We were done. We had to take our car from Rampart
station -- we were doing something -- and something said that we needed to
take the car from Rampart station back to Rampart Detectives.
On our way from Rampart station to Rampart Detectives, there he
is again. And Durden and I both said, you know, "You know, he goes." And
that's how that happened.
Q Okay. And the gun, the 92F, would have been carried where? I
mean, you, obviously, would have to have it in your car.
A Yeah, somewhere in the car. Where exactly, I don't remember.
And it had to be, obviously, somewhere in the trunk. Q But do you
recall whether either -- or do you recall whether this case ever went to
prelim or trial?
A I -- I really don't. I don't remember.
Q All right. Uhm, now, this was October 25th, of '96; right?
A October 25th of '96.
Q Okay. When did you join C.R.A.S.H.?
A I believe like August of '95.
Q All right. So, you were well in the loop, so to speak --
A Oh, yes.
Q -- by this time. Okay. Uh, what we'll do is we will try and
pull those files and the, uh, arrest reports. Do you guys have any questions
on these?
Q BY SGT. COOK: I had a couple of questions, Ray. Uhm, seeing
that guy out on the street again, after you told him, "Get out of here" now
he has to go, who searched him?
A Durden.
Q Durden did?
A Yeah, I was driving. We pulled over right next to him. And
Durden jumped out. And patted him down real quick. And we had made the
determination that he goes before we even got out of the car.
When we saw him, we said, "No way", you know. And I believe
Durden said something like, you know, "He's gone. He's going." And I pulled
up right by him. And the guy automatically just started to assume the
position. Like, oh, man, you know.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A And Durden patted him down real quick, handcuffed him, put him
in the car.
Q Okay. The gun itself, when it was recovered in the back seat,
was that your car or somebody else that was transporting?
A That's what I was thinking about. Because I think, on the drug
case that this was involved in, we were assisting somebody else. But I'm
almost -- I'm thinking that he was in the Taurus. Somebody patted him down.
Somebody searched him. In other words, the case went like this.
[ *******
******* CI #32 description redacted ** ]. And it's starting to come a little
bit clearer. [ **** CI #32 description redacted *** ].
The guy shows up in the front of the building. Two other
officers take him down, [ **** CI #32 description redacted **** ]. They take
him down, uh, and do a pat-down search of him. And he has the cocaine right
in his, uh, jacket pocket, I believe it was.
Uh, I think it was rock cocaine. So, he's going for the rock
cocaine. They do the -- the -- the continuing of the search. I believe, uh,
Durden, at that point, goes and gets the car, brings it over, or something.
He's placed into our Taurus. We then drive the Taurus to Detectives. We get
him out of the car. And I searched the back seat. And there's the gun.
Q Are these C.R.A.S.H. officers?
A C.R.A.S.H. officers.
Q Who were the officers?
A I really need to see that report to really remind me who it was
that -- that -- that searched. But I -- I -- I want to say that Stepp and
Buchanon were involved, and -- and a couple of the other guys. The usual
guys.
Q What was the reaction from the officers when you said, "Hey, we
found the gun?"
A They didn't believe us at first. But we told them, "Listen, you
fucked up." Sorry. "You -- you screwed up." You know, and at first, like,
"No way, man. No. A Berretta? No way. A Berretta?" You know.
But, I mean, they said, "All right, man. Our bag, you know."
But, I mean, that -- that was not a good situation where you got a suspect
in the back seat with a Berretta, uh, up in his butt.
Q And who said, hey, we're -- we're not gonna book it, or --
A Uhm, I don't know if that was just a joint effort. I mean, that
was just a -- a concensus we just said, you know.
Q Nevertheless, the officers were aware of it, but the gun wasn't
booked?
A Right.
Q Okay.
A Yeah.
Q I had a question about the .45.
A Okay.
Q Uh, the description of the .45. Was it chrome-plated? Uh, --
A I think it was blue steel.
Q Blue --
A Uh, one of those -- you know, the old-fashioned?
Q Yeah.
A The government-type, uh, Colt .45's?
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A The blue steel ones. One of those.
Q That would have had wood grips on it? Black grips? Anything
particular about that .45?
A Nothing stands out in my mind right now. No.
Q But to you it appeared to be the same one that you had seen about
a week prior?
A Right. I knew it was. Because that day when, uh, when they
brought the body in, they -- we do -- we always bring the body in, hook them
to the bench. And then, throw the weapon on the -- on the desk. You know,
that's -- that's gonna be booked. And -- and the reports gonna be done.
And I remember seeing it. And I remember looking at him, like,
(Sound effect heard.) come on. Because he -- you know, he's telling the
story to somebody else. Uh, saying that, uh, yeah, they saw this car. And
the guy was -- reached underneath. Uh, and so, he saw that -- a furtive
movement. So, they stopped the car. You know, uh, got him out of the car.
Found the gun in there. I remember --
Q Was there -- was there any other discussion about that, at any
other time, up at the benches, at the Short Stop, anywhere else where that
was mentioned, or mentioned by any other officers?
A Uh, about that case?
Q About that case. About that .45 being planted on that guy.

A I mean, to be very honest with you, that -- that was business as
usual. That wasn't something that was spectacular, or anything like that.
But there's nothing big about it. It's just routine. I'm trying to be
honest.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. Well, we'll follow-up more on this when
we get the files with the arrest reports.
SGT. COOK: Okay.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: Okay. Uh, Ray, we're going to going to, uh,
-- you mentioned the last time you were interviewed, on Friday, that if you
had a roster of names --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q I've, uh, -- over -- you -- you started in Rampart C.R.A.S.H. in
August of '95. And I have well over -- over 80 names of people -- of
officers and supervisors who have gone through that unit.
A Okay.
Q And you talked about being in the loop. And we're going to go
over that. Because we want to set some kind of parameters, at least with
Rampart C.R.A.S.H., as to who we're talking about. And you said being in the
loop was -- you describe it, as officers willing to perjure themselves?
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q But you also said officers who are also willing to plant
narcotics, plant guns, uh, fabricate probable cause.
A Yes.
Q So, as we go down the list, tell us if they were in the loop and
what it -- what is was that they did.
A Okay.
Okay?
A What type of activity they were engaged in?
Q Yeah.
A Okay.
Q Let's start off with Sgt. Douglas Roller, do you know him? R-o-
l-l-e-r. Do you know him?
A Sgt. Roller. I put Sgt. Roller in the same --
Q Well, to begin with, was he in the loop?
A Uhm, Sgt. Roller knew things were going on. Don't tell me about
it. I don't want -- just bring me the booking slip. But he doesn't want to
know about it. So, would we trust him with telling him this was a bad
arrest, but we're booking him because we thumped him? No. Did he know
things were going on? Yes.
Uh, but he just, you know -- just bring me the arrest. I don't
want to hear the story. That type of thing. But if you're going to ask me
if he was in the loop, no. I would say no.
Q All right. But he knew about it?
A Yeah, he knew that things were going on.
Q He knew about the misconduct that was going on?
A Yes.
Q Did he know about specific incidents?
A I can't say what he knew, you know, specific or not. I mean, I
can only assume that he has to. I mean, certain -- several ones were just
so obvious. I mean, he has to know. But I'm not going to, you know, go ask
him, hey, do you know what -- you know, that this is going on.
Q We're going to right down the list.
A Okay.
Q Sgt. Paul Byrnes. Was he in the loop?
A Sgt. Paul Byrnes was definitely in the loop.
Q Okay. And everything?
A Everything.
Q Okay. Uhm, Officer Mark Richardson. Was he in the loop?
A Very much in the loop, yes.
Q And what aspect? Everything?
A Everything.
Q Everything?
A Everything.
Q Sgt. Eric Reade. Excuse me. Officer Eric Reade?
A Reade, I believe, was a probationer. And he was one of those
guys, just like Rios, that was in the unit. You can do certain things in
front of him, but we protected him as much as we can. Keep him out of
reports. Uh, just protect him, only because he was a probationer.
But he definitely wanted to be in the loop. Uh, but we just
wouldn't do it, because we just know he's so young. You know, he's a
probationer. I mean, his job's on the line for any little thing. So, he
can't really be trusted that much.
But things did go on in front of him, I'm sure. I'm positive
that things went in front of -- or would happen in front of him. He would
see it, but, you know, didn't have to write anything, didn't have to testify
to too much.
Q So, he had knowledge of misconduct?
A Yeah. Yeah, he knew things were going on.
Q And -- and when you said before that the way to get into the
C.R.A.S.H. unit, you were voted-in or you had to be sponsored, what about the
probation officers, did you dictate -- did your unit dictate which probation
officers came in?
A Yes. We always try to find who was the -- the most solid
probationer out there who looked like, you know, they squared-away, number
one, appearance-wise; squared-away in the fact that, you know, we can talk
to their P3's and say, yeah, he's -- he's pretty good. You know, he's -- you
know, he's got good tactics and then he's trainable. Uhm --
Q But what about the factor of being in the loop?
A You're not coming into the unit already in the loop. Once you
get in the unit you will find yourself gradually getting into the loop.
Q Okay.
A But you're not just gonna come off patrol and say, okay, you're
in the loop, come on in. Uh, especially a probationer.
Q Okay. Uh, Officer Daniel Lujan?
A Definitely in the loop.
Q Okay. Uhm, everything?
A Everything. Yes.
Q Officer Torres?
A Yes, in the loop. Everything.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Do we have a first name for that?
Q BY SGT. COOK: Yeah, what's his first name?
A Danny.
Q Danny.
A I think actually, I believe it's Daniel.
Q Daniel. Uhm, Officer John Collard, C-o-l-l-a-r-d?
A In the loop.
Q Everything?
A Yes.
Q Officer Anthony Lopez?
A Yes, in the loop.
Q Everything?
A Yes.
Q Now, I want you to differentiate if -- if he's not involved in
everything.
A Well, right. I was getting ready to say, uh, Tony Lopez, uh, was
up there as far as like, uh, he would -- he, uh
-- he -- he like to beat -- beat guys a lot, for some reason. And he's --
he's a big guy. But he beat a lot of guys.
Uhm, would he plant evidence? Yes. Uhm, --
Q We're going to get back into that in more detail. But right now,
I just want to set parameters.
A Okay.
Q But you feel that he --
A He was in the loop, yes.
Q Everything? Uhm, Sammy Martin? Was he in the loop?
A He's in the loop.
Q Everything?
A Well, now, here's the problem with Sammy Martin. I worked with
him for five months in C.R.A.S.H. I never really saw Sammy Martin do
anything illegal. But Sammy Martin was a -- or he knows that things were
going on well before I even got there. I mean, he brought me into the unit.

And I'm sure that he was aware that things were going on. But
I never saw him involved in anything illegal.
Q Okay. So, he had knowledge?
A I'm assuming he had knowledge of things that were going on
before, because if I'm finding out about it --
Q Okay.
A -- I'm sure he has to know something.
Q Officer Hewitt?
A Definitely in the loop.
Q Is that Brian?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. And --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And he was also the one who was involved in
the beatings, right?
A Yes. Mmnh-mmnh.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Officer Stephanie Barr?
A Stephanie Barr is also -- she was a P3 in the unit. She wanted
to be in the loop. No one trusted her. No, she's not in the loop.
Q Okay. Did she have knowledge of misconduct?
A (No audible response.)
Q You said one of the criteria was to get dirt on someone, --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- or to turn your head away if you saw dirt?
A She, uh -- I'm sure she seen some things and turned her head
away. That's exactly what she would do, uh, if she saw something. She would
just turn her head and pretend she didn't see it. But if -- if you ask me
was she in the loop where you can tell her here's what we're gonna do, ahead
of time --
Q You didn't want her in the loop?
A -- she would -- no.
Q You didn't want her in the loop?
A Nobody did. But she tried to fit in. She wanted to fit in. But
no one would trust her.
Q Officer Nelson Fong?
A Nelson Fong is another one who know -- knew that things were
going on. Uhm, I've never seen him do anything in particular. But I'm --
I'm sure that he was aware that things were going on.
Q Officer --
A I categorized him just like Sammy Martin. Good officer, uh,
never seen him do anything, uh, illegal. Uh, but I'm assuming that he had
to know something was going on -- things were going on. You know what I
mean?
Q Yeah. Officer Brian Liddy?
A Liddy also knew that things were going on. And Liddy also, I
categorize him as a very good officer. A lot of good, uh, -- uh, obs
arrests. "Obs" meaning observations arrests.
Uhm --
Q Did you ever see him plant dope -- plant narcotics? I mean,
plant guns, uh, fabricate P.C., uh, perjure himself?
A Uh, the most I've seen him do was fabricate some P.C. -- uh,
fabricate P.C. But, could he be trusted? He could be trusted that if we
told him the worst of the worst, he's gonna go, "Okay. I'm gonna go along
with the story." Uh, but he, himself, wouldn't, uh, really be involved in
doing things.
Q Okay. Officer Thomas O'Grady?
A Thomas O'Grady. Uh, no one trusted him. He wasn't in the loop.

Q No?
A No.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: This is interesting because he's one of the
ones whose dope you switched.
A Yeah.
Q That was --
A No, it wasn't his dope. It was Ruiz. He just happened to be
involved in the arrest --
Q Ruiz. Oh, you didn't --
A -- or something.
Q Didn't he do it under his name?
MR. MCKESSON: No, it was Ruiz' name.
THE WITNESS: No, I think it was.
MR. MCKESSON: It was Ruiz' name. Because it was Ruiz' serial number.

THE WITNESS: No, no, no. Maybe it was O'Grady's serial number. Was
it?
Q DET. THOMPSON: It was, yes.
A Because I had asked you guys that. And you guys told me there
was a guy named Ruiz.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Wait, wait, wait, wait. One at a time.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: It was Ruiz' serial number?
A Yeah, I think it was.
Q It was Ruiz' serial number?
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: I think it was -- O'Grady was involved in the
arrest.
A Right.
MR. MCKESSON: O'Grady was involved in the arrest.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Oh, okay.
MR. MCKESSON: It was Ruiz' serial number.
MR. ROSENTHAL: That's right.
MR. MCKESSON: He was the last one to check it out.
THE WITNESS: I think you guys had talked to him and he -- he said that
I had asked him about the arrest or something?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Right.
A That's what that was.
Q Okay. That's right. It was his arrest. So, was that a
coincidence that it was his dope that you switched?
A Yeah. I think probably -- let's see where I got that. I -- I
probably got it from the recap book and his serial -- uh, name was on the
recap book itself.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A Which is probably why I used that officer's name. Whoever the
officer had made -- who was involved in the arrest, I probably just used that
serial number.
Q Okay.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Before we go on, why did you not trust, or anyone
trust O'Grady? He wouldn't go along with misconduct?
A Right. Uh, he -- he had shown on several occasions that I'm not
one to be trusted.
Q So, he was doing the right thing?
A Yeah, he was doing the right thing. And he just -- he showed his
-- his way about, you know, don't trust me. And, you know, I'm not -- you
know, don't trust me.
Q Okay. The next one will be Officer Lawrence Martinez. A
Oh, yeah. Definitely in the loop. In the loop.
Q Everything?
A Yes.
Q Officer Hopson?
A I didn't work with him.
Q What is his first name, or her first name?
A Hopson?
Q Yeah.
A I never worked with him. I don't know who that is.
Q Sgt. Navarro?
A Uh, Sgt. Navarro is, uhm, -- he's a sergeant, so he's not out
there making arrests. But he's well aware of things that were going on. And
he was involved in his own little -- little thing. We -- we had a problem
with him from the get-go. He was doing things with young ladies that we
didn't like.
Q Okay. But was he in the loop, such as, uh, Sgt. Byrnes?
A Yes.
Q He was in the loop?
A He would -- he would definitely, uh, know things were going on.
And if he had to, as a supervisor, show up and fix something, he would fix
it.
Q He was a fix-it sergeant?
A Right.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Was, uhm, Sgt. Navarro -- is that Sgt. David
Navarro?
A Yeah, I believe it's Dave Navarro.
Q Yeah. Okay. He was -- he was terminated for -- do you know?
A I think he was arrested for, uh, touching on women or something,
or --
Q Okay.
A I don't remember the true or exact form of the arrest, or
something -- but something about him searching a woman or something.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. Uh, Officer Stacy Spell?
A Spell, I believe, was, uh, Barr's, uh, probationer. He was also
a probation officer. Another one of those probationers that were pretty
solid. 'Cause probationers we got to pick. And he, uh, probably wasn't
doing something himself. But I'm sure he knew things were going on, you
know. But we were trying to keep him out of it, as much as we can.
Q So, Stacy Spell, she wasn't in the loop?
A It is a he.
Q It's a he?
A Right.
Q He wasn't in the loop?
A I would say no.
Q Okay. Officer Paul Harper?
A Paul Harper, he's a good guy. But he just got caught up the
longer he stayed. And just started doing little things to, uh, you know,
from time to time.
Q So, he eventually got into the loop?
A Yeah.
Q And are we talking about something -- everything, or just --
A I think mostly, uh, maybe planting some evidence from time to
time and fabricating probable cause, and things like that.
Q Okay. Officer Steven Kehoe?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Uh, do you know how to spell that?
SGT. COOK: K-e-h-o-e.
THE WITNESS: Not in the loop.
Q BY SGT COOK: No?
A Probationer, no.
Q Probationer. Nothing?
A No.
Q Officer Walter McMahon? Or McMahon?
A Probationer. Not in the loop.
Q Probationer. No.
MR. ROSENTHAL: And why don't you spell that last name?
SGT. COOK: The last, uh, M-c-M-a-h-o-n.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And you said that was a probationer?
A Yeah, probationer, yes.
Q BY SGT. COOK: And the reason why -- you know, if you have
information on probationers, because once they leave the unit and go
elsewhere, we'd like to know about it. Okay?
A McMahon was a -- see, again, I'm sure he saw certain things
happening. But, like I said, we would protect them. If -- if I showed up --
if something happened at a scene, and it's one officer and McMahon, and we
show up, okay, get McMahon out of there. I was with you. And this is what
we did. See what I'm saying?
We try to protect the probationers as much as we can, because we
didn't want them -- want them having to be interviewed by Internal Affairs,
or whoever else.
Q Okay. So, they may or may not have seen misconduct?
A Right. McMahon I know have seen things, but he never did
anything himself.
Q Okay. Well, we're gonna deal with that in -- at a later time,
about what you actually saw or have direct knowledge about McMahon knowing.
A Okay.
Q At a later time we'll deal with that. Uhm, Sgt. Edward Ortiz?
A Yes, he's in the loop.
Q Officer Kevin Moore?
A Moore? No.
Q And for what reason?
A Uh, he couldn't be trusted. He wasn't like, uhm --
Q He did what he had to do?
A I -- I always suspected he did his own little things with his own
gang. But it's something he kept to himself and just did it on his own. I
can't say that, yeah, I've seen him do anything.
Q Well --
A But, uh, I feel like he's done his little thing.
Q -- if the criteria is planting evidence, or fabricating P.C., did
he do that?
A I'm sure he's fabricated P.C. I'm sure he's fabricated P.C.
Uhm, he's made some arrests where, you know, we -- where, you know, the guy
comes in the station, we look at each other like, right, that's how it
happened. You know what I mean? You know, and they give you that smirk
like. But I can't say that he planted anything on anybody because I don't --
I've never seen it. I never ever really worked with him.
Q So, you're not sure?
A I -- I think he's aware of things happening, but --
Q Officer Humberto Tovar?
A Tovar is one of those guys where he knows things are going on.
Uhm, will go along with whatever story is said. Uh, but he would get upset,
from time to time, maybe beat on a suspect. But as far as planting and
things like that, he just
-- he was one of those guys, he was a follower. He just goes along with
whatever program, whatever you tell him.
Q But he had knowledge of the loop?
A Yes.
Q And so that made him part of the loop?
A Yes.
Q Sgt. Ron Dickerson?
A You got a photo of him?
Q Yes, I do. If I could describe him. He's kind of a heavyset
fellow.
A Oh, I do remember him, now. Uh, Dickerson, uh --
Q Yeah.
A -- round face?
Q That's right.
A Good sergeant. You know what? Let me see the photo. I'm
getting him confused with Pat, the other sergeant now. What is the other guy
with the round face? Pat, uh, --
Q Yeah, it's 25704.
A When I -- when I left C.R.A.S.H. -- when I got arrested, who was
that other sergeant that was there? Pat -- who was working with the sergeant
that was there?
Q Well, I could tell you.
A Who is the very last sergeants -- the two sergeants that were
there?
Q I don't know.
A Byrnes. Uh, Barons. Pat Barons. He was one of our last
C.R.A.S.H. sergeants. I'm getting him confused with Dickerson. I'd like to
see the photo. I'll know him.
Q Why don't we come back to it, because he's going to look for the
photo? Okay.
We're going to skip on to Officer Scott McNeil.
A Another probationer would go along with whatever, you know, the
program was. Uh, but wouldn't initiate anything himself.
Q He had knowledge of it?
A Yeah, he had knowledge.
Q Officer Jose Mireles? M-i-r-e-l-e-s.
A He only worked the unit, I think, a week or two. He got
something -- uh, he had one of those laser surgeries in his eye, and it went
bad. And he had to be taken out of the unit. So, I never -- I have no
dealings with him. I don't know anything about him.
Q So, put "no" for him?
A Yes, put, "no."
Q All right. This is Sgt. Dickerson. (Picture was shown.)
A Oh, okay.
Q Do you know him?
A Yes.
MR. ROSENTHAL: They're showing a photograph of an officer with Serial
No. 25704.
SGT. COOK: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: Give me a minute. There was an arrest.
MR. MCKESSON: Excuse me. We should probably take a couple minutes for
the reporter. She seems like she really needs a break.
DET. THOMPSON: Let's stop for a minute.
THE WITNESS: Before we get off the record, I want to say something
about him that just popped in my mind, regarding the investigation. And this
is why it reminded me. So, don't let me forget that I wanted to mention an
arrest about this guy.
Q BY SGT. COOK: About Ron Dickerson?
A Yes.
Q Okay.
A Uh, I'm gonna have to look it up.
MR. ROSENTHAL: We'll do that when we get back on the record. It's
4:15.
(Off the record at 4:15 p.m.)
(Back on the record at 4:30 p.m.)
MR. ROSENTHAL: Let's go back on the record, then. Okay. We're back
on the record. It's 4:30. Officer Perez, you're still under oath.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. Ray, you are looking at the photo of Ron
Dickerson. Sgt. Ron Dickerson.
A Yes.
Q And why does Ron Dickerson, uh, come to your attention?
A Uhm, you -- you had asked me the question, was he in the loop?
And, uhm, I -- I've never seen, uh, him, you know, do anything specifically.
Uhm, but something jumped out at me, because I remember, uh, there was a
personnel complaint filed against me by a La Mirada gang. Uh, and I remember
the incident.
Uh, I remember we had brought some gang members in to cite them.
Uh, some seat belt tickets, running them for F.I.'s and warrants, and then
kick them loose. And I believe one of the gang members, uh, that we had
kicked loose, came back to the front desk and said, "I want to make a
complaint."
And I just so happened to be walking by the, uhm, -- the front
desk. And I see him. So, I go back out to the front desk, hook him up, and
take him back to our office.
And I asked him, "What is your problem?" Or whatever, whatever.
And he was like, "Well, I want to make a complaint." Uh, for whatever
reason. I really don't remember what the reason was. I remember later it
was said that I took one and pushed him up against a -- a rod iron fence,
which, I could tell you -- if I did, I'd tell you I did it. I don't remember
pushing. In fact, I never -- I wasn't even the officer that searched him.
I'm assuming that he assumes I must have been the one that grabbed him and
searched him. But it wasn't.
But, when we brought him to the station, uhm, we had talked to
Dickerson. And Dickerson said, "Oh, all right. I'll talk to him." And
Dickerson had told him, "Listen, either, you know, go with the program, or
you're probably gonna get booked for some dope."
And I think -- I think, at that point, the complaint went away.
But then, he came later and filed another complaint. And I think he even
made a complaint about Dickerson saying something like that. Something to
that, uh, effect.
Q So, in this instance, misconduct was brought to his attention and
he didn't take action?
A Right. He, uh, he kind of made the guy, hey, you're gonna forget
about this or you're gonna -- you know, this complaint's gonna go away;
right? Either that or you go to jail. That type of thing.
Q And it did go away?
A Right. But the guy came back later and -- with somebody else.
Or he maybe called it in to I.A. or I don't know where. But the complaint
was made later.
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: We're not gonna go into any more detail right
now.
A Okay.
Q But at a future time we will go into more detail about that.
A Okay.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. Going down the list. Officer Omar Veloz,
V-e-l-o-z.
A In the loop.
Q In the loop?
A Yes, sir.
Q And --
A Everything.
Q Everything. Uh, Officer Arnufo Valdez?
A Valdez? Oh, uhm, I had a little contact with him. He was in the
unit for a short while. I think he went to O.C.B. C.R.A.S.H. O.C.B. or one
of those units. He went to another C.R.A.S.H. unit somewhere else.
Q You don't know if he was in the loop?
A I have no contact. I -- I really don't anything -- know anything
about him.
Q Officer Edward Brehm?
A In the loop.
Q B-r-e-h-m.
A Brehm, you're talking about, right?
Q Brehm. Brehm.
A Cohan's partner?
Q Well, Edward Brehm. They call him Bart.
A Yeah. Then, that's Brehm.
Q Bart Brehm.
A Uhm, uh, yeah. He's in the loop. Everything.
Q Everything. Officer Gil Cardinez?
A Uhm, yeah, he --
Q Do you know who I'm talking about?
A Yeah, the guy that had, uh, a marital problem or something?
Q Big fellow.
A Yeah. Uhm, one of those that you can do anything in front of him
and it'll be fine. But he really doesn't initiate his own stuff.
Q So, he would have knowledge of misconduct?
A Right.
Q Officer Duarte?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Rachel?
A Raquel.
Q Raquel.
A Uhm, had a little bit of knowledge of things that were going on.
Uhm, we believed that she didn't -- she would go with the program, but we
never really trusted her. She only lasted in the unit maybe a month.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Officer Mike Buchanon?
A In the loop.
Q What aspect? Everything?
A Everything.
Q Officer Michael Montoya?
A In the loop.
Q Everything?
A Yes.
Q Officer Kulin Patel?
A Uh, in the loop. Just everything.
Q Okay.
A Pretty much everything, yeah.
Q Officer Doyle Stepp?
A In the loop. Everything.
Q Officer Timothy -- and I'll spell it. Kalkus.
K-a-l-k-u-s.
A Can I see his -- well --
Q Yeah. We'll --
A His photo. I -- uh, he's a probationer, isn't he?
Q His serial number is, uh, 31425. We'll come back to it. We'll
come back to it.
Officer Ethan Cohan?
A In the loop. Everything.
Q Officer Reade? Excuse me. Art -- Art Rico?
A Yeah, he -- he would do anything and everything. But we just
didn't trust him, because he was a little bit stupid. We didn't trust him
to --
Q Okay. He was in the loop, but you didn't trust him?
A No, 'cause he was -- he was too careless.
Q Officer Mario Rios?
A Again, you can do anything in front of him. He'll go with the
program. Didn't initiate a lot of his own things. Or didn't really initiate
anything himself. He was a probationer.
Q So he had knowledge of the loop?
A Yes.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Who is that officer?
SGT. COOK: Mario Rios.
Q Officer John Peters?
A Sgt. Peters?
Q Yes. Excuse me, Sgt. John Peters.
A He -- I characterize him again like, uh, Dickerson. Or Sgt.
Peters, uh, knew something was going on. Just -- in fact, he -- he had told
somebody one time that, you know, the stuff you guys -- you guys could be
going to jail for some of the stuff you guys do.
He had made a comment like and people didn't like that comment
too well. He goes, "I just -- uh, I choose to turn my face, or turn, you
know, turn away from it. But, uh, don't think I don't know what you guys are
doing." He had said that once.
Q And he actually told you that?
A Yeah.
Q "I choose to turn my face?"
A Yeah. He -- well, what he said was, uh, don't think I'm -- I'm
-- I'm dumb. I know what you guys are doing -- you know, what you guys do.
That type of comment.
Q Let me ask you specifically, did you ever see him go to an O.I.S.
or -- or to a crime scene and to create a story?
A No.
Q As I say, other -- other supervisors have done?
A Because if we would show up, we would have the story. With him,
we have the story already as prepared as possible. We really didn't trust
him. He was there. And we felt like he, obviously, knew some things were
going on. Uh, you know, because every once in a while, he -- he was those
type of -- the type of supervisor that would see a defendant sitting on the
bench and wanted to go and talk to him.
"You know, so, what's going on with you? Are you okay? Officers
treat you okay?"
And the defendant may tell him whatever, and he would just keep
it to himself. But later on, you know, -- you know, he would mention, you
know, make little hints towards it.
Q Okay. We're gonna come back and revisit Sgt. Peters and some
future time.
A Okay.
Q What we're gonna do is ask you for more specific information.
A Okay.
Q Okay. Uhm, we were going to go back to Timothy Kalkus. You
remember him as being a probationer? K-a-u- -- excuse me. K-a-l-k-u-s. And
you've got a photo of him in front of you?
A Yes.
Q Serial Number is, uh, 31425?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was he in the loop?
A He was just like most probationers. Uhm, --
Q A probationer.
A -- uh, probably saw some things going on, but was protected and
kept away from it. Uh, if I had -- uh, if you had asked me if he was in the
loop, I'd say no.
Q Officer Lucy Diaz?
A Not in the loop. Just -- I mean, she's -- by -- by accident, she
might have seen a few things and just didn't say anything about it. But
she's not in the loop.
Q Okay. And, so far, there's only three names where you just said
not in the loop. And that's been Diaz, that's been Mireles, and that's been,
uh, --
DET. THOMPSON: O'Grady.
Q BY SGT. COOK: -- O'Grady.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Is that about it, so far?
A Tell me any other names. I -- I mean, I can't just take it off
the top of the head.
Q Hopson.
DET. THOMPSON: No, he didn't know Hopson. You asked him.
THE WITNESS: I never worked with him. I -- uh, he was in the unit
before I got there.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Sgt. Alfonso Guerrero?
A Uh, you're talking about, uh --
Q Do you need a photograph?
A Yeah, that's, uh -- I thought it was Eddie. No, his name's not
Eddie.
Q Alfonso Guerrero.
A Okay. Didn't -- but, didn't they call him Ritchie Guerrero?
Q Ritchie. Ritchie Guerrero.
A Is that the same Ritchie Guerrero?
Q Well, I don't know.
A I didn't know him by Alfonso, though.
Q Serial Number 20550.
A We knew him by Ritchie. We knew him by Ritchie Guerrero. So,
I'm not sure if it's the same guy.
Q We're gonna go on down the list. And we'll come back to it.
Howard Ng?
A Ng, uh, yes, he was in the loop. Uh, his -- his thing was he
would, uh, plant evidence from time to time.
Q Plant evidence? Okay. Uhm, Officer Ruben Palomares?
A Uh, definitely, uh, he's -- he's in the loop. Uh, any --
anything.
Q Okay. Officer Mark Wilbur?
A Wilbur?
Q Do you need a photograph?
A Yeah. I -- I think he's the chunky guy that used to work with,
uhm, --
Q That would be 30646. And we'll come back to him.
Officer Brent Woodard. That's W-o-o-d-a-r-d.
A I have no idea who that is. Uh, if I could see a photo of him.
Q Okay.
A Yeah, that's Ritchie Guerrero. I don't know -- I didn't know him
by Al, or whatever other name he used.
Q Okay. Do you know this supervisor?
A Yes.
Q And was he in the loop?
A He's another one of those, he's -- uh, he will fix -- he will fix
things.
Q This is --
A He's a fixer.
Q This is Ritchie Guerrero?
A Sgt. Ritchie Guerrero. Yeah.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Serial Number on the photo is 20550.
THE WITNESS: Did I ever, uhm, see him, uh, plant any evidence or
anything like that? No. Uh, he's a sergeant. He wouldn't have to. I mean,
he's not making arrests. But, uhm -- Q BY SGT. COOK: He would make
complaints go away? What do you mean by "fixing it"?
A Yeah. Uh, these guys are experienced guys. Metro guys, been
around for a while. Uh, worked the 181 units. They know -- one of the
reasons they come into a C.R.A.S.H. unit is because they're experienced unit
-- uh, they're experienced sergeants, most of the time.
And, you know, I -- I put him right up there with, uhm, Sgt.
Chacon, Sgt., uh, Ortiz. They're -- they're -- you know, they've been to
Metro. They've done things. They know how to articulate things. They know
how to fix things, so when a young officer comes up to them and says, "I
thumped this guy. I don't know." They know how to fix it.
Q Okay. So, he --
A If a complaint comes --
Q -- would be involved in creating the story as would Sgt. Edward
Ortiz?
A Right.
Q Create the story to -- to cover all the bases?
A Uh, Edward Ortiz -- or Eddie Ortiz -- a lot more than him.
Because, uh, I had problems with him. In fact, when I went to Narcotics,
that's why I went to Narcotics. We weren't getting along. He wanted to
change some things in C.R.A.S.H. Uh, well, you know, between him and Chacon,
I -- I -- you know, I just didn't get along with him.
(Brief break to change paper and tape.)
SGT. COOK: Okay. We're back on tape. We're on Side B. And, uh, I
have Tape No. 2153332.
MR. ROSENTHAL: It's 4:43.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Uhm, you know, we're gonna revisit at a future
time, 'cause we don't have the time right now. Alfonso Guerrero. Again,
we're gonna want to talk about specific incidents that you're aware of.
Okay. When you call the supervisor "fix it" we want to talk about specific
incidents.
Okay?
A Mark Wilbur? Serial Number 30606 -- 646. I'm gonna show you
a photograph. Do you recognize him?
A Uhm, maybe -- maybe fabricate some, uh, P.C. Maybe, uh, -- uhm,
--
Q You say maybe?
A Well, here's the --
Q Was he in the loop?
A You can say anything in front of him and it -- it'll be okay.
Did he go in and -- and seek and do, uh, his own things? Not really. Uhm,
-- uh, would he find a gun over here and the suspect's over here and say,
"You know that's your gun" and say, "Okay. You had the gun." Yes, he would
do that.
Q Okay. Officer Brent Woodard. And I'm going to show you a
photograph. His serial number is, uhm, 32509.
A I've never even seen him.
Q You don't know him?
A No.
Q Okay. Officer Magdalena Gomez.
A You got a photo?
Q That would be Serial number 27297.
A Is that a -- a male? Magdalena?
Q Magdalena.
DET. PAILET: He's a male.
SGT. COOK: Okay. We'll come back to him. Officer Norma Peteque.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Could you spell that?
SGT. COOK: P-e-t-e-q-u-e.
THE WITNESS: Not in the loop.
Q BY SGT. COOK: No? And why would you say no?
A She's definitely not in the loop. Can't be trusted. Can't do
anything in front of her.
Q Is that because she won't tolerate misconduct?
A Because she's just -- yeah, she was a female in the unit who had
absolutely no motivation, zero observation skills.
Q Okay.
A Uh, just, you know.
Q She didn't fit your profile of a C.R.A.S.H. -- C.R.A.S.H.
officer?
A She didn't fit the profile of, you know, of a C.R.A.S.H. officer.
Q Sgt. Robert Chacon?
A Sgt. Chacon. Uh, if you ask me if he was in the loop, I would
say no.
Q Pardon me?
A If you -- if you would ask me if Sgt. Chacon was in the loop, I
would probably say no.
Q No?
A Uhm, --
Q So, you couldn't go to like Chacon to create a story for an
incident?
A I'll put it this way, this sergeant, one time, had a roll call,
uh, -- uh, a roll call meaning -- and he said something about some of you are
gonna go to jail. He said that to us one time. I mean, he mentioned for
several reasons, including using steroids. And he started giving a speech
how he's worked Internal Affairs. He knows how things go. Uh, and, some of
you guys are gonna go to jail one day.
And, after that roll call meeting, I mean, I blew up. A lot of
people blew up. And we really had it out with him. And, I mean, --
Q He wasn't in the loop?
A -- he left the unit. Yeah, he -- he was not in -- in any loop
with us.
Q Okay. We're going to go back to, uh, Officer Magdalena Gomez.
Here's his photograph.
A Oh, okay. Yeah. Uh, not in the loop as far as I know. I only
worked, uh, with him for a short time.
Q Okay. Officer -- excuse me, Sgt. Joseph Sanchez.
A Can I see his photo? Sanchez?
Q Uhm, that would be 25339. We're gonna come back to him.
Officer Dave Vinton?
MR. ROSENTHAL: Could you spell that?
SGT. COOK: V-i-n-t-o-n.
THE WITNESS: He's in the loop.
Q BY SGT. COOK: He's in the loop?
A Uh, planting evidence.
Q Why would you say that? Planting evidence?
A Yes.
Q Planting evidence. In particular, uh, what type of evidence?
A He was working the Diamond Street gang, if I remember correctly.
In -- in fact, Vinton, I think, was working with Rico, if I remember
correctly. And, uh, you know, from time to time, they'd, you know, come by
the office. And when I say, you know, planting evidence, because a lot of
times they'd come by the office and say, "Has anybody got anything?" They
got a couple of bodies. They got to go.
Q Okay.
A That type of thing.
Q So, what is he asking for? Anybody got --
A Narcotics.
Q Narcotics?
A Yeah.
Q Okay. Uhm, Officer Andrew Lassak. And that's L-a-s-s-a-k.
A I'm going to have to see that photo.
Q Okay. We'll come back to him. Serial number is 30835.
Officer Shawn Gomez?
A Isn't that Gomez you just showed me just there?
Q Well, this is Shawn Gomez.
A Is that another Gomez?
Q Yeah.
A I'm gonna need to see his photo.
Q That number is 30885. The serial number.
Sgt. Joseph Sanchez?
A Oh, uh, --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Is that the right number, John?
SGT. COOK: Yeah.
MR. ROSENTHAL: That's 25339?
SGT. COOK: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: He's not in the loop.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Not -- he's not in the loop?
A No.
Q Okay. Officer Michael Wang? W-a-n-g.
A He only worked Rampart C.R.A.S.H., I believe, one month. I think
I trained him. Maybe two months. Maybe -- I think one month. He -- he's
not involved in anything.
Q Okay. Officer David Shearman? S-h-e-a-r-m-a-n.
A Shearman, uh, we didn't get along. A lot of people didn't get
along with him. He did his own thing. So, we really didn't know what he's
involved in. He wasn't in our loop.
Q Okay. Officer Juan Guerra? G-u-e-r-r-a.
A I'm gonna have to see the, uh --
Q Photograph would be --
A -- the photo.
Q -- 30949. We're gonna go back to, uhm, Shawn Gomez. That's, uh,
Serial number 30885.
A Oh, okay. Yeah, I just --
MR. ROSENTHAL: And you've just been provided with a photograph.
THE WITNESS: Mmnh-mmnh.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Do you know Shawn?
A Yeah, young officer.
Q Is he in the loop?
A Uhm, yes.
Q And why would you say that?
A Uhm, fabricate, uhm, P.C. Uhm, planting evidence. Uh, things
like that.
Q Okay. And we're going to go back to Officer Andrew Lassak. And
that's Serial number 30835. And you're being provided a photograph.
A Uhm, yeah, I remember him. Uh, again, I -- I put him right in
the same category as Shawn Gomez, will fabricate, uh, P.C., fabricate some
evidence -- you know, plant some evidence. Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Is
that yes in the loop?
A Yes. Yes.
Q BY SGT. COOK: And guns or narcotics?
A Fabric- -- yeah, guns. I mean, pretty much everything. If --
if the -- whatever situation presented itself, he definitely would be in the
loop.
Q Okay. Officer Roger Ruggiero. That's R-u-g-g-i-e-r-o.
A In the loop. Anything.
Q Officer Camerino Messina.
A I need to see the photo.
Q M-e-s-s-i-n-a.
MR. ROSENTHAL: How do you spell the first name also?
Q BY SGT. COOK: Uhm, C-a-m-e-r-i-n-o. Camerino. Pardon me?
A I said I need to see the photo.
Q Sure. That would be Serial number 30907. We're gonna come back
to that one.
Officer Lauren Rauch. R-a-u-c-h.
A Rauch was a P3 -- on the P3's in the unit. Uh, initially, you
know, we were told be wary of him. The supervisor said, "Let's see." But
he was the kind of guy that you can do whatever in front of, and he'll go
with the program. But didn't initiate his own stuff.
Q And, so he had knowledge of being in the loop?
A Yes. But we really had him doing a lot of the administrative
stuff. Because we really didn't trust him.
Q Officer Todd Turner?
A Uh, --
Q Need a photograph?
A No, I -- I think he's a short, uh, kid.
Q That number would be, uh, 31534.
A If -- if you had asked me if Turner was in the loop, I would say
no.
Q Okay. You know --
A But was he aware of some things were going on? I'm sure he was.
I'm sure he did.
Q Okay. So, he may have had knowledge --
A Yes.
Q -- of misconduct?
A But not in the loop. Not with us.
Q But no loop. Officer Brian Koren, K-o-r-e-n.
A That's the guy with a bunch of tattoos, I think.
Q I don't know. Do you want a photograph?
A Uh, yeah, I'd like to see the photograph. I want to make sure.
Q That would be 27055. Now, I'm going to give you, uh, Camerino
Messina. And that's Serial number 30907. Do you know him?
A Yeah. In the loop. But did very little. I mean, he's aware of
a lot of things going on.
Q He had knowledge?
A Right. He had knowledge. Uh, if -- if the situation presented
itself and he needed to, he'll -- he'll fabricate evidence and -- and plant
evidence.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: So, you would say that in the loop?
A Yes.
Q And that's Camerino Messina?
A Yes.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. Brian Koren. Did you want his
--
A I wanted his photo. Right. I wanted his photograph.
Q That would 27055.
DET. PAILET: I think I just gave it to you. It's there. It's right
there in front of you. There you go.
Q BY SGT. COOK: You have a photograph of 27055.
A Yeah. Uhm, he came in towards the tail end of when I was -- uh,
you know, when I was in C.R.A.S.H. Uhm, wanted to be in the loop. Some
officers trusted him. He was aware of some things going on. But as far as
I was concerned, he wasn't in my loop. Because I hadn't worked with him that
much. And I didn't trust him because, basically, I didn't know him.
But other officers were, you know -- were talking to him and
using him for some things. So, I'm assuming he was in the loop with them.
Q He had knowledge of a loop?
A Yes.
Q Uh, Officer Craig Herredia?
A Not in the loop.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Why don't you spell that for the court reporter?
SGT. COOK: Uh, H-e-r-r-e-d-i-a.
THE WITNESS: Not in the loop, but was aware that there was a loop
around.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. He had knowledge?
A Not in the loop, but he had some knowledge of things going on.
Q Knowledge. You didn't trust him?
A Uh, I wouldn't. I wouldn't trust him straight out, no.
Q Okay. Officer Dustin Sclater. And I'm gonna spell that. S-c-l-
a-t-e-r.
A Not in the loop.
Q And for what reason?
A Just not in the loop. He was a young officer. He was there a
short time. I believe he came back later. But I believe he was there, went
somewhere else, and then came back. Q Okay. Is it also because --
and I don't know -- these officers just wouldn't tolerate misconduct, or not
in the loop?
A It's just until they showed you something, you're not gonna trust
them. Until you can do something in front of them, --
Q Okay.
A -- and know that he's okay with it, and -- and would do it
himself, you're not gonna trust him.
Q Okay. Officer Jeffrey Graham?
A Jeff Graham is -- Jeff Graham is aware that there's a loop. Uh,
he's been in C.R.A.S.H. for a long time. He's another one of those Sammy
Martin's. Uhm, they were -- they were in the unit at the same time. Uhm,
I'm sure -- and I'm assuming, but I'm sure that they had to know that there
-- there was things going on. But they never did anything. Jeff Graham --
I've never seen Jeff Graham do anything wrong.
Q Okay. Officer Frank Arujo?
A Frank Arujo was there to try and impress somebody. Paul Byrnes
sponsored him in. 'Cause we all said no. Then, Paul asked me, "Ray, I know
him from some other division. He's a solid guy. Could you work with him?"
And I -- I said, "All right."
Q Did he have knowledge?
A He had knowledge of things going on. But I didn't trust him.
So, we did very little. You know, I -- I didn't trust him.
Q You feel he had knowledge?
A Yes.
BY MR. ROSENTHAL: This is Arujo?
SGT. COOK: R- -- A-r-u-j-o. Frank Arujo.
Q Steven Cornell? Officer Steven Cornell?
A I'm gonna have to see the photo.
Q That would be 30504. Let's go on to the next one. Sgt. Timothy
Torsney. Do you know Lt. Torsney?
A I'll need to see the photo. Torsney?
Q That would be, uh, 25383. And here is Serial number 30504.
Photograph of Steven Cornell. Do you know him? Do you recognize him?
A Not -- yeah. Not in the loop.
Q No? Okay.
A Uhm, was he aware? I'm sure he was. Uh, he just wasn't trusted.
So, he wasn't in the loop.
Q You know, we're gonna have to -- we're gonna have to come back
and ask you for specific information about what you -- A Yeah.
Q -- something that you knew that each guy -- that they
demonstrated they're in the loop.
A No, he was not in the loop.
Q Okay. He demonstrated knowledge --
A What I said was he -- right.
Q -- of misconduct?
A Okay.
Q Okay. Sgt. Timothy Torsney? And his serial number is 25383.
And you're looking at that photograph.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Why don't you spell the last name?
SGT. COOK: Tornsney is T-o-r-s-n-e-y.
THE WITNESS: Sgt. Torsney, uhm, -- uh, was he in the loop? No. Uh,
was he, uh, -- was he -- would he try and help you, uh, in a situation? Yes.
In fact, he was the one that told me that you guys were, uh, asking for my
logs for handwriting exemplars. That R.H.D. was asking for logs. In fact,
he told me right before I got arrested. He said something about, they called
down here wanting to know about you being on vacation. Uh, so, be careful.
If you go on vacation, be careful what you're doing.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay, Ray. But he wasn't in the loop as far as
all the criteria that you've established -- planting evidence, creating a
story?
A Again, he's one of those sergeants where you tell him the story
and he'll look at you like this and go, "All right." And signed the booking
sheet. But we wouldn't go up to him and tell him the truth, where, you know,
hey, this guy got thumped. So, he's going for 11350. We'd just tell him
what the story is. Uh, you know, and he has no problem signing the booking,
uh -- booking sheet.
He was, uhm, -- if you ask me if he was the loop, no, he wasn't
in the loop. Uhm, but --
Q You're -- you're not certain?
A Did he know what -- things were going on? If you're in a
C.R.A.S.H. unit, and you're a supervisor in a C.R.A.S.H. unit, you have to
know things are going on. I mean, it was --
Q Okay. We're gonna talk about that in more detail at a later
time.
Officer Brian Miyakawa?
A Miyakawa?
Q Yeah. M-i-y-a-k-a-w-a.
A Miyakawa was in the loop. However, he's been around a long time.
So, when he came back to C.R.A.S.H. this time around, I mean, he knows
everything that goes on. But, really, he didn't have to prove himself to
anybody. He's been around a long time. He was well-known. Uh, and so he --
have I ever done -- uh, seen him do anything illegal? No.
Does he know things were going on? Yes.
Q He has knowledge. Officer Michael Barker?
A Barker.
Q Do you need to see -- you need his photograph? 30693. And I'm
providing you a photograph of 30693.
A Is he in the loop? No. Another guy that we also, uh -- we --
we made him do administrative stuff to try and keep him out of the loop. He
was a P3 in the unit.
Q You didn't trust him?
A Uhm, but, basically, he was kind of -- sort of forced on us by
somebody. I forgot who. But, uh, we -- we kept things from him.
Q You did not trust him?
A No, we didn't trust him.
Q And, uh, Officer Michael Chavez.
A Need to see a photo.
Q Okay. That would be 30544. And we'll come back to that. Now,
-- oh, here we are. And I'm providing you a photo of Serial number 30544.

A Okay.
Q Yes.
A I'm going to have to get off the subject for a second here.
Remember the complaint I told you about, uh, the -- the guy who got a cut in
his nose or something? It was bleeding. And we made up a story that we
chased him. And went around -- like I said, uh, one of the officers were
beating on him --
Q Yeah.
A -- with a flashlight.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: They had -- in other words, they had pushed
him -- the guy was pushed and he had went through the wall? That --
A Right. That -- that part I did. That was at the very end. That
was -- but before that.
Q Not that I know of.
A I'm getting two people confused now. I'm getting this guy
confused with Veloz. Uh, is there anyway you guys can pull a report and find
out which of the officers --
Q I think we -- we may have the report you're talking about.
Because I have some photographs of the injury that you talked about.
A Right. I -- I need to find out which officer was there.
Q Okay.
A Him or --
Q I'll put a question mark right here.
A 'Cause it was either him or Veloz. And I'm not getting confused.

Q Okay.
A Him and Veloz. This is, again, who, uh, -- what's his name
again?
Q Chavez.
SGT. COOK: Chavez.
THE WITNESS: Chavez. I'm getting Chavez and Veloz confused.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Apart from that, any other knowledge of him?
A Oh, yeah, he knows. He's in the loop.
Q Oh, he's in the loop?
A Yeah. He's in the loop.
Q Oh, okay.
A Uh, it's just -- it hit me just now that I'm getting two people
-- I might be getting two people confused. And I don't want to do that.
Q Okay. Uh, knowledge or everything?
A Knowledge. He'll -- he'll do whatever.
Q Everything?
A I'm sorry?
Q Plant evidence?
A Yes. Yes.
Q P.C.?
A Yes.
Q Now, all the officers I gave you went through -- officers and
supervisors -- went through the unit between August, when you went in and,
uh, when you came out.
A Right.
Q Prior to you going in, before August of '95, I'm going to give
you some more names here.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Okay.
A Now, this would be based on history and -- and --
Q Well, this will be based on about a year.
A No, what I'm saying is, you're gonna ask me about officers that
were in the unit before I was there?
Q Well, I'm gonna ask you if you have specific information about
them being in the loop.
A Right.
MR. MCKESSON: Excuse me, uh, detective, when you say "specific
information" --
SGT. COOK: Well, I'm gonna ask you if you --
MR. MCKESSON: -- you mean personal knowledge?
SGT. COOK: I'm gonna ask -- well, it's my understanding that if
there's been knowledge, when you said they're in the loop. And then, at a
later time, we're gonna specifically go into detail about them. We're just
trying to set the parameters right now.
MR. MCKESSON: No, I understand. 'Cause I didn't understand why you
were differentiating these from the guys --
SGT. COOK: Because he wasn't in the C.R.A.S.H. unit. He started the
C.R.A.S.H. unit in August. The names that I'm gonna give him were officers
and supervisors that were in the C.R.A.S.H. unit prior to him going in
August.
MR. MCKESSON: And left?
SGT. COOK: And, uh -- and left.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Left C.R.A.S.H. before Perez got there.
SGT. COOK: And we're talking about within a year before.
MR. MCKESSON: No.
SGT. COOK: But you were still at Rampart.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Let's stop. Stop.
MR. MCKESSON: So, it would appear that all those officers you're
asking about, he wouldn't have firsthand knowledge. You just -- you're
asking whether he heard the reputation?
SGT. COOK: Well --
MR. MCKESSON: I'm just trying to get -- get an understanding. 'Cause
-- 'cause you separated those officers. MR. ROSENTHAL: No. Wait. Wait.
I'm confused.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. The officers that I have -- I have given
him -- the list of names --
A So far.
Q -- these were officers that went through the unit when you were
assigned to the unit?
A That's correct.
Q Okay. You were in Rampart in '94. You went to Rampart in '94?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. You didn't go to --
A '94, I believe.
Q -- to the C.R.A.S.H. unit until August '95.
A Now, I'm -- now, I'm not sure whether I went in '94 or '95 to
Rampart.
Q Okay. Well, I can tell you. Well, if I have it.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: Had you been working Rampart, Ray, before you
went into the Rampart --
A Rampart Patrol.
Q -- C.R.A.S.H. unit?
A Yes, I had been working Rampart. Now, if you're gonna ask me,
uhm, on certain names of the people that were in the Rampart C.R.A.S.H. unit
before I was there, some of the officers who probably are in Metro now, some
of the officers that have come to our roll call, or our, uh, mug parties, or
mug, uh -- meet up at the Academy and have a -- a get-together, a lot of
them.
Have I heard things that they've done and -- and -- and
scuttlebutt that they've been involved in, and how they did things way back
then? I can tell you -- I can tell you on some of them. I can't tell you
on all of them. I can just tell you what I've heard.
And I can -- and if you can ask -- uh, if you ask me, or give me
a certain name, I can tell you whether they were definitely loop. I wasn't
involved with them, back then, but I know, based on stories, whether they
were in the loop or not.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. Well, why don't we just go over that then?
A Okay.
Q All right.
A That's fine.
Q Let's start with Sgt. George Hoopes.
A In the loop.
Q He was in the loop?
A Yes.
Q Now, this -- is this on personal knowledge?
MR. MCKESSON: I'm unclear. I mean, I don't want to be saying that, --
SGT. COOK: Sure.
MR. MCKESSON: -- but how can he have personal knowledge if he wasn't
at C.R.A.S.H. at the same time?
Q BY SGT. COOK: Well, why don't you explain to us then?
A I have worked -- I have worked with Sgt. Hoopes, uh, in other
aspects. Uhm, he comes to the -- all our mug parties. Uh, the plaque that
you probably saw in my house, with the -- you know what that plaque is even
about? That -- that C.R.A.S.H. plaque with -- that has the two, uh, red, uh,
-- two red hearts. With a red heart and two bullets in it. And the gun.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: Eight. Aces and eights?
A Yeah, aces and eights. Do you guys know what that is?
Q What is that for?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Tell us.
A Sgt. Hoopes gave me that plaque for the Ovando shooting. That's
what that is. We give plaques out when you get involved in shootings. Uh,
if -- if the guy dies, the -- the -- the card is, uh, black number two. If
he stays alive, it's a red number two.
I didn't know if you guys knew that or not.
Q Is it more prestigious to get one that is black than red?
A Uhm, I'm assuming so. I mean, uh, yeah. I mean, you know, the
black one signifies that a guy died. Uhm, the red one means that he -- it
was a hit, uh, but not fatal.
Uh, Sgt. Hoops is probably aware of everything that goes on in
C.R.A.S.H. Because any supervisor that comes to C.R.A.S.H. always talks to
Sgt. Hoopes. I mean, he is -- he knows everything that was going on in
C.R.A.S.H.
I mean, 'cause he's been there.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Is he on the same -- I'm sorry.
A I'm sorry?
Q Is he on the same plane as perhaps Sgt. Ed Ortiz?
A And Sgt. Byrnes. Yes. They're -- they're all right there.
Q As Sgt. Ortiz?
A They're all -- the -- when I was there, they were the heart of,
uh, Rampart C.R.A.S.H.
Q And, again, at a later time, we'll go into more detail. Now,
we're gonna drop to Officer Marco Rivas.
A From what I understand, and I hear -- this is a tall guy, right?
Went up to motors? He was in the loop. But I don't know what he was
involved in. So, I -- I really can't give you a definitive answer, uh, with
him.
Q Okay. Uhm, Officer James Thornton?
A I can't comment on him.
Q Okay. Officer Raul Vincent?
A Can't comment on him.
Q Okay.
A Can I see some of these photos on these people?
Q Sure. You want to see Thornton?
A Thornton and Vincent.
Q Okay. That's, uh, Serial number 26610, and Serial number 27173.

Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Does the court reporter need any spellings of
last names?
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. 26610. That would be officer James
Thornton. You have -- you have a photograph.
A Yeah. Uh, yeah, I've seen him. I know who he is.
Q Okay. You have no information?
A I can't say that -- that -- I can't say that.
Q And Photograph 27173, Officer Raul Vincent.
A I can't say anything about him.
Q Okay. Officer Daniel Sanchez?
A I know who he is. Uh, went to Metro. Again, I can't -- I can't
comment.
Q Sure. Officer Robert Valdez?
A Uhm, I've heard some -- I've heard some things on him. If you
ask me is he in the loop, I would say yes. But I can't put my finger on --
on exactly why. But, was he in the loop? Yeah.
Q Officer Ivan Ramos?
A Ramos was another one who I've heard -- I've heard things. Uh,
in fact, I think one time we did a -- we helped, uh, secure a location,
'cause they were gonna do a walk-through for a shooting that they had been
involved in -- him and a couple of other officers.
And I remember some of the jokes that were being said as to how
the actual shooting went down. As compared to how they were, uh, doing this
walk-through for some attorney or something, for some civil rights violation
lawsuit or something. I think it was right in -- I want to say on Hoover and
12th area somewhere around there.
Uh, we were securing, you know, closing off the street while they
were simulating how the shooting actually occurred.
Q He was saying the shooting differed other than what was reported?
A Collard was the other officer, I guess, was involved in that
shooting. Collard and Ramos. And I remember them joking as to -- about how
the guy -- I guess this was a big foot pursuit. The guy ran from one place
all the way to the middle of the street. They shot at him. I believe they
finally hit him. And things had to be fixed afterwards. Something like
that.
And what it got -- uh, I had -- I wasn't there when the shooting
occurred, whenever it occurred. I was there when they did the walk-through.
Uh, I don't know. I may have been a year or two years later. Uh, 'cause I
think this was for a lawsuit and they needed to go through certain things.

So, we were there helping them block off the streets. And I
remember some of the talk going on.
Q Okay. Well, we'll revisit it. Officer Jonath- -- Jonathan
Tippet? T-i-p-p-e-t.
A Again, I've heard many stories, you know. Definitely in the
loop. Uhm, can I pinpoint certain things? Not really. But he definitely
knows -- he's definitely in that group.
Q Officer Edgar Villalta. That's V-i-l-l-a-l-t-a. Do you know
him?
A Yeah. Uh, from what I understand, very good officer. I can't
comment on him.
Q Okay. Officer John Bertino?
A Bertino is definitely --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Why don't you spell that?
SGT. COOK: B-e-r-t-i-n-o.
THE WITNESS: From what I understand, and things I hear, and like I
say, you know, a lot of these ex-C.R.A.S.H. guys used to come and, uh, help
us with some of our training days and stuff like that. And he still works
Rampart, uh, so you talk to him from time to time.
He definitely knows about the loop. Would you ask me if he was
definitely involved in the loop, at one point, when he was there? Yes, he
was in the loop. Uh, I can't pinpoint any certain thing, though.
Q Officer Melissa Towne?
A Uhm, see, I worked with Melissa when she first got to Rampart.
Uh, right when she got off probation. Uh, and I know she'd been involved in
certain things. Uh, cover-ups. Uhm, simply because, uh, supervisors told
us about what they did on certain things.
So, if you ask me if I know certain little specific things about
her, yes. She would be in the loop. Not trusted. But forced in certain
situations to be in the loop to cover her own butt. So, she sort of got in
the loop.
Q Okay. Officer Dennis O'Sullivan?
A O'Sullivan, uh, is in the loop. Uhm, he's still at Rampart. Uh,
-- uh, I think he was the senior lead. Uh, he, uh, -- he has no problem
putting a case on somebody.
Q Okay. So, putting cases on people?
A Yeah. Dope, narcotics, guns.
Q You're talking about everything, or just --
A Yes. Yes. Yeah, he is definitely in the loop.
Q Officer Patrick -- excuse me, Sgt. Patrick Smith. This was the
sergeant you were talking about?
A Patrick Smith?
Q You said Patrick.
A No, I -- I was talking about Pat, uh, Barrons.
Q Okay.
A But I need to see a photo of Sgt. Smith.
Q Sgt. Patrick Smith, uh, 27956. Uhm, Sgt. Mark William?
A I need to see a photo.
Q Okay. Uh, unfortunately, we don't have one. Okay. Now, let's
talk about -- and I just got a couple of names here
-- the six months that you were with the Field Enforcement Team.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Okay. Officer Melissa New? Was she in the loop?
A These people that worked F.E.S. have nothing to do with Rampart
C.R.A.S.H.
Q Okay.
A I can't put them in any category as far as the loop goes. Uh,
you know, if you ask me was there anything illegal done in front of them, and
they saw it, and were in a position to see it, and didn't do anything about
it, I can maybe answer that. Were they in the loop with Rampart C.R.A.S.H.?
Absolutely not. They -- they have no reason to be. They -- they wouldn't
get near it. They're -- they're not involved in it.
Q Okay. Then I think that we will approach these names on a case-
by-case basis. You're -- you're saying that they weren't in the loop because
they weren't part of C.R.A.S.H.?
A Right. You can't be, uh, from some other place, and be in the
loop at the Rampart C.R.A.S.H. 'cause we're not gonna let you know anything.
It's not gonna happen.
Q Here's a photograph of -- of Sgt. Patrick Smith. Uh, you're
looking at 27956.
A I can't comment on him.
Q Okay. I think that takes care of all the names that we have to
go into.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: Do you want to go into, uh, F.E.S. at all?
Names, or --
A Are you gonna go into some of the names?
Q BY SGT. COOK: Well, he's saying that he can talk about
individual acts of misconduct.
A No, I said, you can ask me the particular officer was involved
in any type of misconduct. And I can --
Q Okay.
A -- tell you, yah, or nay. But as far as them being in the
Rampart C.R.A.S.H. loop, all of them are going to be a no, unless they worked
Rampart C.R.A.S.H.
Q All right. Let's talk about -- okay.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: I just had one question. For, uh, Rampart
F.E.S., was there a loop that existed there? I'm not talking in conjunction
with Rampart -- with Rampart C.R.A.S.H. but in F.E.S. unit itself, was there
a loop there? When you were working there, was a loop -- another loop
created? Was there a group of people that were trusted, just like in -- in
C.R.A.S.H. or would trust each other?
A Not really. I mean, me and Durden, you know, uh, we did our own
thing. So, -- but this was a loop that came from somewhere else. It wasn't
an F.E.S. loop. Uhm, so, I can't say there was a loop in F.E.S., no.
Q We're talking about planting dope, planting guns.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Uhm, at F.E.S. We're talking about, uh, fabricating probable
cause. We're talking about putting a case on people.
A I understand.
Q Okay. So, that would be the criteria?
A Right.
Q Uhm, Melissa New?
A Uhm, Melissa New was involved in a couple of things with us, uh,
as far as falsifying information. And, uh, she was involved in that, uh, --
that crime report that was written regarding home invasion robbery, where
Officer Durden and I went there. And, uhm, some jewelry was taken off of
females. She actually helped -- she took the jewelry off of the females.
Uhm, other than that, uhm, Melissa New is, you know, a pretty
straight arrow. She wanted to go to C.R.A.S.H. but I would tell her, okay.
I'll look into it. I'll look into it. But I really didn't want her going
to C.R.A.S.H.
Q Officer Stephanie Sutherland? Do you know her?
A Sutherland is definitely not in no -- any loop. Nothing.
Q Nothing. Officer Larry Covington?
A Nothing that I know of.
Q Officer Coronado?
A Officer Coronado was involved in some things with us as far as
falsifying, uh, information on a report, and falsifying P.C. Uhm, -- uh,
articulating a crime that occurred that actually didn't occur. Uh, meaning
a sales that occurred, and it actually didn't occur. But, other than that,
he was not involved in any other loop.
Q Officer Garcia?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And, excuse me. Do you have a first name?
A Coronado, his first name?
Q BY SGT. COOK: Armando?
A Armando, I believe. Yes.
Q Armando Coronado. And, uh, Officer Garcia, his first name?
A I think it was Sonny. Sonny Garcia?
Q Mmnh-mmnh. Sonny Garcia.
A Uhm, Sonny -- Sonny Garcia was one of those officers who, uh --
a young officer. And wants to fit in. Uh, you know, wants to, you know,
hang out, you know. He worked, I believe, Rampart for a little while. Uh,
was he in any loop? No. Will he falsify information on something that
occurred? Yes.
Q Officer Canister. His first name?
A I think it's Randy. Randy Canister.
DET. THOMPSON: Randy Canister.
THE WITNESS: Not involved in any -- by the numbers. He's by the
numbers.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Gizzi. First name?
A Dean Gizzi.
Q That's G-i-z-z-i.
A Would Dean Gizzi falsify information, cover-up information? Yes.
Was he involved in any loop? No. Uhm, that's about all I could say on that.

Q Okay. Again, we're going into more detail about that at a later
time. Officer Graff? What's the first name? G-r-a-f-f.
A Can I see a photo? Graff? Oh, uh, he was a -- a supervisor who
came in later.
Q Okay.
DET. THOMPSON: A D2.
THE WITNESS: Uh, he's not in any loop.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Okay. Uh, Supervisor McGee. First name?
DET. THOMPSON: Bill.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Bill McGee.
A Uhm, none of the supervisors were involved in any loop. But did
they know we were doing our own thing? Yeah, they knew we were doing our own
thing. Did they know exactly what we were doing? Uh, I think -- I don't
think so.
Uhm, did they know the fact that we were using, uh, an informant
over and over and over again, who wasn't signed-up? Yes. Uh, did they
falsify like log books? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they would check it maybe once
a month, or once every two months. And then, initial it for the whole month.

Q BY DET. THOMPSON: What do you mean?
A They always do that.
Q I'm sorry? Uh, is that what you're saying?
A In other words, a log book is supposed to be checked on a daily
basis. And the supervisor is supposed to initial it at the bottom of the
page. And, I mean, I'm looking at that as an official log. It's a log.
It's a log book. Uh, and when you initial it on a daily basis, that's
supposed to mean that you initialed it for that day. You looked at his
activity and initialed it that day.
Uh, I -- I believe -- I think it was, uh, Officer Nalywaiko --
Detective Nalywaiko that asked me -- would ask me if the logs were checked
every day or something like that.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: Yeah, I had asked you that before.
A Right. Uhm, no. They're not being checked every day. They
check maybe once a month, maybe.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, let's stop for a second. What we should do --
let's -- let's draw this to a close.
SGT. COOK: I just have one more name.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. Great.
SGT. COOK: Just one last name.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Just try and talk slowly.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Officer, uh -- excuse me, Lusby. L-u-s-b-y.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. George Lusby.
THE WITNESS: George Lusby. Is George Lusby involved in some circle?
I don't think so. Uhm, if you ask me was George Lusby involved in something
maybe a long time ago, uh, I have to say -- I would think so. Do I have any
proof of it? Do I have any specific information? No. Uhm --
Q BY SGT. COOK: Let's talk about when you were at F.E.S. for those
six months.
MR. MCKESSON: Let me just say this. Are you aware he described one
incident involved George Lusby?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: I was about to bring that up. Is that the --
is that what you were talking about, the one incident with the money?
A Right. I mean, I -- I can talk. I mean, I was -- I have some
information that, you know -- or little stories he would tell us about
certain amount of money he would see and --or like he -- I mean, he spends
a lot of money. I mean, his wife calls him one day -- and he's divorced --
and says, "I need a new car." And he comes and tells us the next day, "Yeah,
I went and bought her a new van -- you know, a new mini-van." Or something.
I mean, just -- he said, "I bought it cash."
And then, the next day, he's telling us about a story when he was
working in Simi Valley -- the big money take-down, the big dope deal or dope
seizure up in Simi Valley.
Q Yeah.
A He says he was there, you know, uhm, bringing stuff in. And he
remembers he had a, uh -- uh, one of those Army, uh, sea -- sea bags -- we
call them sea bags -- full of money. He says he had put it in his trunk, was
gonna, you know, transport it somewhere, and, uh, end of watch he realized
he hadn't taken it out of his trunk, or something like that.
And he goes, man, it was so easy to just -- you know, he -- he'd
always tell us stories like this. Uhm, but he said
-- you know, obviously, he said, yeah, you know, he turned it in. And it was
over a million dollars in there -- in a sack. But he always had these
little stories about how --like another one I can think of right now is, some
dope dealer that they did a search warrant on. And there was like -- if I
remember, he said there was like over a hundred thousand dollars just stacked
up neatly on the table.
And the dope dealer told him, "Just take it. And I can just walk
out of here." And he was telling -- you know, telling us how, you know, it
was tempting and everything. But he just didn't do it, you know. But just
the way he talks gives you that -- that thing.
And then, when that incident occurred with Detective Lusby with
the cash out of the vacuum cleaner, it -- it -- it started my wheels turning
more about him.
Uhm, do I -- have I seen anything specific? No. Is he involved
in maybe, you know, logs not being kept up? Yeah. Was he aware that I was
using [ *** CI #2 *** ], uhm, on more than one occasion that wasn't, uh,
signed-up? Yes.
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: Would that be [ CI #2 ]?
A [CI #2], yes. Uh, [ ** CI #2 ** ]. He was aware that I was
using -- that I was using [CI#2]. He has met [CI#2] on -- on several
occasions.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: [ **** CI #2 description redacted **** ].
A No, I don't believe so. Uh, and like I said, there was that one
[ ********* CI #2 description redacted ***********
***************************************************************
***************************************************************
***************************************************************
********* ].
[ ****************************************************
****************************************************************
****************************************************************
********************* ].
Q As -- as long as we're in that area, let me just clear up one
issue. [ *********** CI #2 description redacted ********
************************* ]?
A I would have to look at the dates as to, uh, the last few cases
[CI#2] gave me.
Q Let me -- in fact, actually, one of them that I'm just going to
ask you about, if you remember, you were testifying about a case involving,
uhm, cocaine being cooked in an oven.
A Right.
Q Remember going in, and -- and Lusby was there.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Kind of the whole crew.
A Yeah, the whole crew.
Q Okay. And that was --
A It was like a multi-four arrest maybe.
Q Right.
A Yes.
Q And that case came from [CI #2]?
A Yes, it did.
Q Okay. Now, that case occurred, I believe it was in November.
It was in November.
A I was -- [ ** CI #2 description redacted ** ].
Q Okay.
A Yeah.
Q November -- November 25th of 1997.
A Yeah, [ ** CI #2 description redacted ** ].
Q Okay.
A And like I said, uh --
Q So, I mean -- so, you lied at trial about that?
A Yes.
Q At trial, you specifically said, "[ ****** CI #2 description
redacted ***** ]." I'm sorry.
A No.
Q "[ ** CI #2 description redacted **] --
A Right.
Q -- [ ** CI #2 description redacted ** ]."
A Right. And I wasn't certain on the dates. Uhm, but I know --
uh, I think [CI#2] stopped giving me information -- uh, early December [CI#2]
stopped giving me information. I don't think there was too many more arrests
that [CI#2] gave me after late November or early December. That was probably
one of the last ones.
Q Okay. Why did you lie about that?
A I don't know. To be quite honest, I really wasn't aware -- I
wasn't sure anyway. But I just said no because it sounds like the best
answer, at that point.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, I was gong to say something else about that. Uh, Detective
Lusby and McGee, uh, I don't know if you remember in the trial -- remember
I was telling you to bring that case up? I don't remember if you remember.
Right in the middle of trial, it was like ask them about this case, 'cause
they were saying they didn't know [CI #2]. And that case clearly, Detective
Lusby knew who [CI#2] was, because he had asked me again, "Why doesn't [CI#2]
want to get signed-up?"
And you had asked him, "Showing -- you know, directing your
attention to this photo." And he looked right at and say, "No, I've never
seen [CI#2]." You know, but, yeah, he's seen [CI#2] several times. And
that's one case that he knew it came from [CI#2] because he had told me how
much he would pay [CI#2] if [CI#2] was signed-up.
Q Okay. That was -- let me just, for the record, that case
involved, uhm, looks like it was, uh, Jose Gebrara Aminta.
Jose Gebrara -- G-e-b-r-a-r-a -- Aminta Merida. A-m-i-n-t-a. Merida, M-e-r-
i-d-a.
All right. It's 5:31. We're back on the record. The third
arrestee for the November 25th, 1997 arrest was Carla Ramirez, R-a-m-i-r-e-z.

SGT. COOK: Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. D.R. number 97-06-01147. Okay?
A Do you have a question pending?
Q No. Uh, where do we want to go now?
SGT. COOK: Okay. I'm done with, uh, going over the roster. Stan, you
want to take over?
Q BY DET. NALYWAIKO: Ray, what we've got are some packages
regarding arrests that you and Nino Durden made. I'm going to show you these
packages. We've got quite a few of them here. What I'd like you to do is
look at them and see if you recognize the name on the package. Look at the
photograph, if there is a photograph attached. If you remember something
specific that there was something illegal that happened there, any planting
of dope or taking of money, put that off to one side.
If you look at a package and you don't readily recognize that,
put it off to another side, uh, because we don't have the time alotted to us
right now, and we've got quite a few packages to review everything.
A Can I suggest something?
Q Sure.
A I think it would be, uh, more time-consuming to do it this way.
Why don't we go over any specific questions you might have, while we're on
the record. And, if you want, after we're done and the attorneys have to
leave, I can -- without answering any other questions, I can look through the
packages on my -- you know, for a little bit longer, if you want. And I
could put some to the side that I know something happened. And the ones
nothing happened, I can put to the side. And, then, at another time, we can
get into them. I don't know if that's better. MR. ROSENTHAL: That
might actually be a good idea. That way what he could do is without having
to have the court reporter here and the tapes on, we can have him do it
separately. And then, he can talk about each one when we go back on the
record. Would that be all right?
DET. NALYWAIKO: Yeah. But my only concern is that I know 1800
Transportation will be here for you.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Oh, okay. Well, then, I would --
THE WITNESS: I was just thinking that if you wanted me to.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, why don't we go off the record.
(Off the record at 5:33 p.m.)
(Back on the record at 5:40 p.m.)
MR. ROSENTHAL: All right. We're back on the tapes. It is, uh, 5:40.
We're continuing the interview.
Q BY DET. NALYWAIKO: Ray, I have, uh, some arrest reports that I'm
going to be showing you here. Some of them were involved in what we're
terming "switch" cases, as far as court proceedings.
But these were arrests that, uh, either you and another officer
were involved in, or you and Durden were involved in. I'm going to hand you
these reports and have you look them over. There's photographs that are
attached with the reports, or on the copies of the report. And, uh, -- and
see if you have any specific recollection about the arrest.
The first one I'm giving you is Gricelda Orellana and Juan Rojo.
Orellanan, O-r-e-l-l-a-n-a.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Spell the first name, too.
DET. NALYWAIKO: And, uh, the first name is Gricelda, G-r-i-c-e-l-d-a.
And Juan Rojo, R-o-j-o. This arrest was made on 9/04 of '97.
A What would you like to know about this case?
Q If anything occurred on that date? And there may also be another
one -- uh, arrest in there. Check that package. Uh, because those people
were arrested twice by you.
A The first time, uh, we arrested these people was with Officer
Coronado and myself. Uh, nothing occurred, uh, with that, other than, later,
I believe. Were there -- were there, uh, switches done on both of these?
Q Yes.
A I think so, yeah. But these were righteous arrests. These
people -- uhm, this Orellana one was also, I believe, was given to me by, uh,
[ CI #2 ]. In fact, remember I had talked about, uh, Carla? Remember I was
trying to find it in the thing, in the Narcotics book?
Q Yes.
A That Carla person, I was trying to find. Carla was supposed to
try and turn over this person. Uh, I -- I later found that out that this
was Carla's supplier. And she never did. But we had already arrested her
once, me and Coronado. I wasn't thinking who she was. I arrested her later
at another time again with her boyfriend Rojo.
Q Did anything -- anything occur on the second arrest?
A Illegally, as far as, uh, --
Q Either time that they were arrested?
A Other than the dope switches? Let me -- let me look for a second
here.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: While you're looking, there is one question
I think everybody has, which is what did you switch the dope with?
A Flour. Flour that I would purchase either at 3rd and Vermont or
3rd and La Brea. It was always, uh, flour.
Q And did you weigh it beforehand?
A On most of them I did. On a couple it was either impatient or
something. And it wasn't -- you know, there wasn't enough to -- it was a
small -- one of those small little, uh, -- uh, scales. And it was just too
much to try and fit it all -- you know, balance it on the -- on the scale
itself. So, I just sort of just guesstimated.
Q How did -- how would you get the dope to switch? How would you
put the D.R. number?
A It was just narcotics that I knew it was going to weight exactly
a certain amount. Like a lot -- a lot of these cases, the dope that was
ordered up was always a quarter, or two quarters, or a half.
You know, so I knew that the narcotics that was going to be
checked out, was going to be exactly a quarter. So, I knew that if I got
eight quarters from different places, I can get a pound or -- or a key, or
whatever it came up to.
Uh, so -- and it was dope that I was either familiar with or had
some involvement with. And I knew that it was going to be righteous dope.
It wasn't something that somebody booked and it was kind of bunk -- or not
bunk, you know what I mean?
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A Most of the time, I -- I -- I was trying to, you know, make sure
it was righteous dope.
Q How did you come up with this idea?
A Uh, to doing the switches?
Q Yeah.
A You know, I -- I can't really an- -- uh, I know that when I told
myself that, I said there's no way they would ever find out. I mean, if you
really think about it, who -- unless on that March 2nd one, uh, if I would
have done the switch there, who would have ever known?
Q Why did you take, let's say the pound?
A The pound?
Q Yeah, the pound from the -- let me see, the James Van Demmons
dope.
A Right.
Q Now, part of that you had done all these switches?
A Right.
Q Which, frankly, was a -- I don't necessarily want to say
brilliant, but was a excellent idea, if you're going to do something like
that. Why didn't you return the James Van Demmons narcotics?
A When was that switch done? That switch was done sometime in
February?
Q Right. February 5th.
A February 5th. Something happened. I had the package and I had
it for quite some time. I hadn't done the switch yet. And I had it sitting
somewhere. And I can't remember exactly where I had it. Something occurred
where it might have been the robbery thing. Or maybe not.
In other words, something happened in the unit or -- or where I
was working, where some heat was coming down. And I had the package. And
I said, I got to get rid of this. I didn't have like time to go put it back
in the locker or something.
And if I remember correctly, I burned the package, because I was
worried. You know, I was, obviously, worried. And I can't remember if it
was because the robbery detectives had gotten a hold of that report, or
something happened. There was something that scared me. And I said, I've
got to hurry up and get rid of this. That's the only reason that that one
wasn't actually done in a switch and returned.
'Cause I -- I remember burning the package itself. I burned it.

Q And then the three kilos, why didn't you switch that?
A That was absolute an impulsive thing that took, like I said, a
matter of a couple days that I wasn't even thinking about that I didn't need
the money. It was just something that like, wow, I can do this.
Uh, and when I decided to do it, I thought about just getting it
out. I didn't think about returning it. That -- see, I'll figure that out
later. But once I had gotten it out, my goal was to get rid of it as soon
as I can. And I didn't even think about, you know, trying to repackage three
big kilos, again.
And I just wanted to get rid of the box. And I threw the box in
the gutter. Uhm, I had thrown the -- the -- the box in one of the gutters
in Rampart Division as I was driving. I
-- I -- I crushed it up and threw it in one of those street gutters. That's
what I did with the box.
Q Were you aware that, uh, if an item was not returned, that --
A A tracer was going to be created?
Q Let me finish the question. The question is, were you aware of
that?
A Mmnh-mmnh. And that's -- that's --
Q Is that yes?
A Yes. And I was expecting that, you know, that. After I did it,
and I threw the box away, of course, I'm telling myself, "Jesus, of course,
heats gonna come down."
First of all, the name Perez was used. Obviously, they're gonna
look up every Perez in the division. How many can there be? Maybe 25, 30.
I don't know.
So, my name's gonna be thrown in the mix. And, obviously, my
thinking was, why couldn't I just have packaged three kilos and put it? But
it was such an impulsive thing. It was a conversation -- a conversation that
we were having. And [CI#2]'s telling me about [ ** CI #2 description
redacted ** ].
And I'm thinking to myself, it's a little bit larger scale. But
it's the same theory. You know, I can do it. But my biggest problem was I
just needed to get it out. That was the big problem.
And, then, I never even thought about how I'm going to check it
back in. And I was worried about checking it back in. You know, I didn't
know if there was a different procedure to checking in, uh, high quantity
narcotics. The whole thing just -- I said, ah, I'm just gonna destroy the
box. I destroyed the box the same day -- in the gutter the same day.

Q Okay. Now, you told us before how you and Durden stole a pound
of cocaine, or seized a pound.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Then sold it to that guy's own supplier --
A Yeah.
Q -- or own, not supplier, uhm --
A Customer.
Q -- customer. Thank you. Uhm, now, there's a period of time
between then and the first theft?
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And from what I can tell, the first theft would have been a dope
switch?
A Yes.
Q And you said that that happened sometime in December of '97?
A Have we looked into that one that I had mentioned about whose
wife called-in about the rent money? And remember the one we had talked
about because Durden took the money and I told him not to take the money.
And then, later on, I went down there and, uh, gave her the money back, out
of my own money? Uh, that was a switch. And I'm not sure if you guys ever
caught that one.
DET. NALYWAIKO: We may have that one here.
THE WITNESS: Oh, really?
Q BY DET. NALYWAIKO: Yeah. Uh, --
A That was probably --
Q Is that the one you were talking about that was in West L.A.?
A Yes, sir. Westwood.
Q I think we have it identified.
A Okay.
Q We'll verify it with you, though.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, let's -- whatever date it was, we'll --
we'll get to that later. But what was it -- first of all, all of the dope
switches, all of that dope went through [ ** CI #2 description redacted **
]?
A All that dope went to one person, [ **** ]? Q Okay. And
what was it that made you realize that you could -- that you had somebody to
sell it to?
A Well, like I said, [CI #2] had told me [ ** CI #2 description
redacted ** ] predicament.
Q Oh, that's right.
A Uh, that [CI#2] didn't want to keep using [CI#2 description], use
as suppliers. Because they weren't treating [CI#2] right, as far as how much
[CI#2]'s paying. [CI#2] was telling me how [ **** ] was only making a
minimal profit on what [ **** ] was selling and stuff like this.
And -- and, again, -- I'll tell you this again. And I know you
guys probably don't believe it or whatever, but myself and [CI #2] even had
several arguments, because I had talked to [CI#2] and I said, "You better not
be involved in any of this shit." And that's how we -- you know, we'd talk.

And [CI#2] always assured me that [CI#2] was not involved in any.
That [CI #2 description redacted], but [CI#2] was not involved in any of it.
And we even had arguments. I don't know if you guys -- if [CI#2] ever really
talked to you guys or not. But [CI#2] always assured me that [CI#2] was not
involved in any narcotics sales.
But [CI#2] told me this story about [ **** description redacted].
And that's where it all started. And I started -- you know what, and I told
[CI#2] the story about a friend who I knew, who I had arrested, who would do
anything I had told him, because he owed me a lot of favors. And if he had
-- that he had, uh, ample narcotics, he can supply [CI#2] with whatever.
And I think there was maybe just a total of three -- three total
actual narcotics deals. And when I say "deals", I mean dropped off by
[CI#2]'s car, [CI#2] comes and picks it up, takes it to [ ** CI #2
description redacted **].
Q So, you would combine some of the quarters that you stole -- four
quarters then you combined them all into one deal?
A Yes, sir.
Q Uhm, combined four quarters and then doing one deal.
A Right. There was a total of -- a total of three deals done. And
all in the same manner.
Q Okay.
A Same way. It was with [ CI #2 description redacted ].
Q All right. Uh, Det. Nalywaiko, I'm sorry. We digressed.
DET. NALYWAIKO: That's all right.
MR. ROSENTHAL: But let's get back to what you were trying to get out.

THE WITNESS: From what I recall --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Now, we're -- I'm sorry. We have a question
from over here. Where would you store the cocaine once you took it?
Q BY DET. THOMPSON: The switch, where would you put the dope?
A Uhm, a lot of the times, I kept it in that -- that like green
cooler that I talked about. Uhm --
Q Is that the one with Durden's name on it?
A Yes, sir. Yeah. Uhm, I never wanted to take it home. I remember
that. There might have been once or twice when it was in my truck, because
I picked it up. It was in my truck -- personal truck. And I did the
switches right in my truck. And it might have stayed overnight in my truck.

But I -- I really tried not to have it in my truck. Uhm, but
most of the time, if -- if it was gonna be stored for any length of time, it
was in that cooler in the, uh, officers', uh, cot room. That's most of the
time that's where it was.
Q Let me -- I'm sorry. As long as we're at it. When you were
arrested, and actually when you were initially suspended, the first question
you had is, "Is this about the bank robbery?"
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Why was that the first question? Here you had been stealing and
dealing large amounts of narcotics. Why did you think it was about the bank
robbery? And were you trying to --
A Because that's all anybody ever talked about.
Q Okay. Go ahead.
A Because that's what everybody was assuming. See, uh, all the
surveillances that you guys were doing, and all the calling to the captain
and saying I want to talk to the lieutenant and telling him, you know, we
need this and Perez is into this -- all of that gets to Sgt. Hoopes. All of
that gets to Sgt. Byrnes. All of that gets down to Rampart C.R.A.S.H.
Uh, I don't know if this is true or not, at some point, was that
guy following me? Were you guys working with the FBI and they followed me?
I don't know.
DET. NALYWAIKO: Not me.
THE WITNESS: At any rate, at roll calls, we would bring it up. Okay,
it is guaranteed Officer Perez is being followed. Everybody be careful.
Whatever you're doing out there, be careful. You know, we're being followed.

At first, it was the C.R.A.S.H. unit is being followed. And
then, uh, I think it was Miyakawa that brought it to our attention at roll
call one day, no, they're absolutely, positively looking at Perez.
Uh, other things. You know, when you guys requested the logs.
Uh, you know, like my C.R.A.S.H. logs to do the handwriting exemplars. All
of that, I -- I knew. Uhm, because it -- it came up, you know. My
supervisors were telling me.
Uhm, so, what was the original question?
Q As to why you thought it was, uh, the robbery that you were being
suspended for, as opposed to the dope?
A Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. Because also a lot of the guys in
the unit always thought that, you know, this little heat that was coming down
was about the bank robbery. David Mack was my friend. And me and Sammy were
good friends with David Mack. You know, so they were all assuming. You
know, they would go, "Ray, are you involved in that?" You know. And I was
saying, "Man, I'm not involved in no bank robbery."
But when any heat was coming down, they automatically assumed it
was the bank robbery. So, that's what I said, it's because -- even when my
sergeant, uh, brought me upstairs when I first got arrested, he told me,
"Okay, it's going down now." That's what he told me. When I was on my way
upstairs, Sgt., uh, -- my last sergeant -- I can't remember his name now.
One of the pictures you showed me.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Barron?
A No.
Q Torsney?
Q BY DET. PAILET: Chacon? Torsney?
A Torsney.
Q BY SGT. COOK: Torsney?
A He -- and he was -- he -- uh, no, it's -- yeah, it was Sgt.
Torsney who had made me aware that there's some people here to see you. It
doesn't look good. And I had just come back from Taco Bell or something.
I left my food downstairs. He escorted me upstairs. And I was taken down
to the Captain's office.
Why did that -- those words come out of my mouth, "Is this about
the bank robbery?" I was just going along with what everybody else was
thinking anyway.
MR. ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, Stan.
Q BY DET. NALYWAIKO: All right. I wanted to ask you about [** CI
#2 description redacted ** ]?
A Once.
Q [ ** CI #2 description redacted **]?
A [ ** CI #2 description redacted **].
Q Okay. Regarding Gricelda Orellana and Juan Rojo, nothing ever
happened on those arrests? Who was your C.I. on those arrests? Who -- how
did you obtain the information?
A The first one, uh, with myself and Officer Coronado, that I
believe -- let me see. I want to make sure. I believe, that -- that was his
clue. Let me take a look here. I don't -- yeah.
Yeah. The first one was Coronado's, uh -- uh, clue. The second
one, the clue came from [ *************************
**************************************************************
**************** CI #33 description redacted *****************
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
******************* ] --
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A -- is the one who gave us the information. What happened was [
CI #2 ] had given me information about [ ******
**************************************************************
**************** CI #33 description redacted ****************
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
******************* ].
It just so happens, that it was coincidence that this person was
the same person that we had arrested, you know, a couple of months, uh, --
a month prior. Exactly a month prior. Uh, you know, and when
we saw her, we were like, "That's that same female that we had arrested."
She had bailed out -- both her and her boyfriend had bailed out. And it just
happened to be a coincidence.
Q Was Gricelda Orellana related to Melba Orellana, or do you know?
Where the alleged --
A Which one is Melba Orellana?
Q Home invasion. Home invasion robbery.
A Are they the same last names?
Q Yes.
A I'm not aware -- I'm not aware that they were related. I know
that [ ************************************************** *****************
CI #2 description redacted ******************
****************************************************************
****************************************************************
************************* ].
[ ****************************************************
****************** ].
Q Okay. I'm going to show you another arrest where you and, uh,
Durden were involved. And this arrest was Antonio, A-n-t-o-n-i-o, Orellana,
O-r-e-l-l-a-n-a. It occurred on, uh, 9/04 of '97.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Is this a confirmed dope switch?
A This is a dope switch.
DET. NALYWAIKO: Yes, it is.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Oh, it is. Let me ask. Is this the one the
narcotics was destroyed?
DET. NALYWAIKO: No, I don't believe so. I have to look at the report.
But, --
MR. ROSENTHAL: All right.
Q BY DET. NALYWAIKO: As you're looking through there, Ray --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- uhm, I'm wondering who the informant was on that particular
case. And, if you know if that Orellana was related to any of the other
Orellanas'.
A This is Orellana is related to that Orellana -- other female
Orellana.
Q Gricela Orellana?
A I believe they're brother and sister.
Q Okay.
A Who gave me this? Now, do we have that -- remember that folder
you had with all the arrests on it from F.E.S.?
Q Yes.
A If I could look at what the arrest was prior to this one, it
could probably jar my memory. I -- I can't, off the top of my head, I don't
remember who gave me this. It had to be someone involved in this little, uh
--
Q Was it [ CI #2 ]?
A See, [ **********************************************
****************** CI #2 description redacted *****************
*********************************** ]. And I can't remember who it was. [
********** CI description redacted *****************
************************** ].
Q Right.
A But I can't, off the top of my head, remember who it was. But,
I believe, this person is related to that other lady. I believe it's her
brother.
Q Okay. Another question regarding, uh, informants. Did you have
any documented informants?
A Documented?
Q By documented, I mean completed a package?
A I did a package for one-time use on a couple of guys. Uh, as far
as narcotics goes, I didn't do any other packages on, uh, completely signed-
up informants, no. Other than like one-time use.
Q Did anybody ever question you? Any supervisors ever question you
regarding informants, where the information came from, how you got that
information?
A Other than, okay, you got information? Okay, where are we going
to go do it? No. Nothing as far as, uh, are we paying this guy? Are we
signing him up? Uh, is he C.R.I., or is he just a C.I.? No.
Q Did other officers have informants that worked the unit?
A Sure.
Q Documented informants?
A Mmnh-mmnh. I'm sure, uh, Canister's got a couple. Uh, Armando
Coronado's got a couple. Uh, Gizzi had a couple. Uhm, --
Q Why didn't you document some of the informants?
A To be quite honest, I don't know. I was just using them. And
it was convenient. I didn't have to do a package. I just used them. And
I don't know if the detectives just looked at it, as well, you know, they're
on loan here. So, they don't have to do packages. Or, you know what I mean?
I know about packages, of course. But no one ever asked me to do a package
on anybody. So, I never did it.
Q Did you pay any of the informants?
A I don't think so. That I can think of, I don't think I ever had
that type of informant. It was always someone trying to work a case off, or,
you know, someone who I was, you know, squeezing for info, who I knew was
selling or who was on probation. They knew they were dirty, and they just
wanted to give me information to get out of trouble.
Q Okay. On Antonio Orellana, was there, uh, anything illegal that
happened? Did you take any narcotics? Or did you take any money?
A Yes.
Q You did on that one?
A Uhm, I took narcotics.
Q How much?
A Uhm --
Q At the time of the arrest?
A At the time of the arrest, he showed up with 262 -- okay. Uh,
it says, "There was plastic bag with two plastic bindles containing off-white
powder resembling powder cocaine."
There was -- and those two quarters would be, uh, a half. There
wasn't a half. It was -- let me think. I'm trying to -- I don't want to
confuse it with another one.
Q Okay. Are you unsure, at this time?
A Yeah, I'm not positive.
Q Okay.
A I know this was a dope -- I switched this dope.
Q I know you switched it.
A Oh, okay.
Q But I'm talking at the time of the arrest is what I was concerned
with.
A Uhm --
Q And if it's not clear in your mind right now, we can get back to
it. 'Cause I know it's, uh, six o'clock.
A Yeah, I'm not positive, as far as -- I know I switched the dope.
I want to say he had more dope than that, but I'm not positive.
Q Okay.
A I'll think about it, though. I'll --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. It's, uhm, five after 6:00. We're going to
conclude the interview and go off the record.
(Off the record at 6:05 p.m.)
-oo0oo-

VOLUME 3 - OFFICER INDEX

September 22, 1999, Transcript B

NAME PAGES

Officer Frank Arujo 464-465

Officer Michael Barker 467

Officer Stephanie Barr 434, 439

Sgt. Pat Barrons 442-443, 478, 501

Officer John Bertino 477

Officer Edward Brehm 417, 447

Officer Mike Buchanon 426, 448

Sgt. Paul Byrnes 430, 438, 464, 104, 499

Officer Randy Canister 481, 505

Officer Gil Cardinez 447

Sgt. Robert Chacon 454, 456-457, 501

Officer Michael Chavez 467, 469

Officer Ethan Cohan 416-420, 447, 449

Officer John Collard 432, 476

Officer Steven Cornell 465

Officer Armando Coronado 481, 491, 502, 505

Officer Larry Covington 481

Officer Lucy Diaz 451

Sgt. Ron Dickerson 442-446, 449

Officer Raquel Duarte 448

Officer Nino Durden 420-421, 423-426, 480,
598

Officer Nelson Fong 435

Officer Sonny Garcia 481

Officer Dean Gizzi 482, 505

Officer Magadalena Gomez 455-457

Officer Shawn Gomez 458-460

Officer Jeffrey Graham 464

Officer Graff 482

Officer Juan Guerra 459

Sgt. Alfonso Guerrero 452-453, 455

Officer Paul Harper 439

Officer Craig Herredia 463

Officer Brian Hewitt 434, 501

Sgt George Hoopes 472-474

Officer Hopson 438, 452

Officer Timothy Kalkus 448-449, 451

Officer Steven Kehoe 440

Officer Brian Koren 461-463

Officer Andrew Lassak 458, 460

Officer Brian Liddy 435

Officer Anthony Lopez 432

Officer Daniel Lujan 432

Office George Lusby 483-484, 486, 488

Officer David Mack 500

Officer Samuel Martin 433, 435, 464, 500

Officer Lawrence Martinez 437

Officer William McGee 482, 486, 488

Officer Walter McMahon 440-441

Officer Scott McNeil 443

Officer Camerino Messina 460-462

Officer Jose Mireles 443, 451

Officer Brian Miyakawa 466-467

Officer Michael Montoya 448

Officer Kevin Moore 441

Sgt. David Navarro 438

Officer Melissa New 478-480

Officer Howard Ng 452

Officer Thomas O'Grady 435-437, 451-452

Sgt. Edwardo Ortiz 441, 454, 474

Officer Dennis O'Sullivan 477

Officer Ruben Palomares 453

Officer Kulin Patel 448

Officer Norma Peteque 456

Sgt. John Peters 449-451

Officer Ivan Ramos 475-476

Officer Lauren Rauch 461

Officer Eric Reade 431

Officer Mark Richardson 430

Officer Art Rico 449

Officer Mario Rios 431, 449

Officer Marco Rivas 474

Sgt. Douglas Roller 429-430

Officer Roger Ruggiero 460

Officer Ruiz 436-437

Officer Daniel Sanchez 475

Sgt. Joseph Sanchez 457, 459

Officer Dustin Sclater 463

Officer David Shearman 459

Sgt. Patrick Smith 478-479

Officer Stacy Spell 439

Officer Doyle Stepp 426, 448

Officer Stephanie Sutherland 480

Officer James Thornton 474-475

Officer Jonathan Tippet 476

Officer Daniel Torres 432

Sgt. Timothy Torsney - (Lt.) 420-421, 501

Officer Humberto Tovar 417

Officer Melissa Towne (Zack) 477

Officer Todd Turner 461

Officer Arnufo Valdez 447

Officer Robert Valdez 475

Officer Omar Veloz 446, 468-469

Officer Edgar Villalta 476

Officer Raul Vincent 474-475

Officer Dave Vinton 457-458

Officer Michael Wang 459

Officer Mark Wilbur 453-455

Sgt. Mark William 478

Officer Brent Woodard 453, 455