Statement of Rafael Antonio Perez, Sept. 22, 1999

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STATEMENT OF

RAFAEL ANTONIO PEREZ,

TAKEN AT THE METRO TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY (MTA) BUILDING, LOS ANGELES,
CALIFORNIA.

IN RE: CASE NO. BA109900
People vs. Rafael Antonio Perez

APPEARANCES BY:

Richard Rosenthal
Deputy District Attorney
Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office
Special Investigations Division
210 West Temple Street
17th Floor
Los Angeles, California 90012

William Cox
Detective
Los Angeles Police Department
Robbery-Homicide Division
Task Force
Parker Center
150 No. Los Angeles Street
Los Angeles, California 90012

Michael Hanson
Detective
Los Angeles Police Department
Robbery-Homicide Division
Task Force
Parker Center
150 No. Los Angeles Street
Los Angeles, California 90012

Winston Kevin McKesson
Attorney at Law
315 S. Beverly Drive
Suite 305
Beverly Hills, California 90212-4309

REPORTED BY:

Sara A. Mahan
Stenographic Reporter
Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office
C.S.R. No. 10647

sam/99-031

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 22, 1999; 1025

MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. It's 10:25 on Wednesday, -- somebody help me
with the date here.
DET. HANSON: 22nd.
MR. ROSENTHAL: September 22nd, 1999. Continuing interview of Rafael
Perez. Uh, although you should consider yourself still under oath, at all
times, I'll put you under oath again. Uh, raise your right hand.
"Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?"
THE WITNESS: I do.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. Thank you. Uhm, we've got here, uh, Detectives
Michael Hanson, uh, Bill or Wilber --
DET. COX: William Cox.
MR. ROSENTHAL: William Cox. I'm Deputy District Attorney Richard
Rosenthal. These are the continuing interviews of Rafael Perez. And he has
here Mr. Kevin McKesson with him, as counsel.
RAFAEL ANTONIO PEREZ,
duly sworn and called as a witness, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSENTHAL:
Q Uhm, let's start off, though, apparently -- before we started,
you told one of the detectives that there was some additional information
that you needed to let us know about relating to other officers that may have
been involved in misconduct. So why don't you just tell us about that?
A There's two things that I need to bring up immediately. The
detectives may need to hear it. I don't know if you just relay the
information.
Firstly, the, uhm, -- the weapon that we were talking about on
the Lake Street shooting.
Q And that's the Ovando incident?
A Mmnh-mmnh. The Ovando incident. Uh, we had talked about where
the gun had come from.
Q Right.
A And I couldn't remember exactly where it came from, if it came
from a gang sweep or wherever. Uhm, that gun came from an informant. Uh,
it came from an informant named [ CI #6]. Q Okay.
A Uhm, I believe [ CI #6 ] had -- from what my recollection was --
[ CI #6 ] had given us -- [ CI #6 ] had told me that there was a -- a Tech
.22 machine gun in the neighborhood. Uh, and [ CI #6 ] knew where it
was stored. I asked [CI#6] to get it. And [CI#6], uhm -- [CI#6] placed it
somewhere where we could find it. And we recovered it.
Q Okay. How long before the Ovando shooting was that?
A I want to say maybe a week and-a-half, maybe two weeks.
Q Okay.
A No more than two weeks. No more. Uhm, [CI#6], uh -- [CI#6]'s
an informant that we had used. I don't think [CI#6]'s a righteously signed-
up informant, but [CI#6] was an informant that we were using in C.R.A.S.H.
Uh, [CI#6]'s name -- I think [CI#6]'s documented in some other incidents
that, uh, RHD handled. Uh, [CI#6] was the informant -- RHD -- Robbery
Homicide Division -- Detective Luper had used [CI#6]. Detective Luper had
used [CI#6], uh, in a Conspiracy to, uh, to Commit Murder on a Police
Officer. [CI#6] was one of the informants that they used. Uh, and, so I'm
sure they have [CI#6] documented.
[ ***************************************************
*************** CI #6 description redacted ********************
****************************** ].
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. HANSON: Ray, how did you get that gun, though?
A If I remember correctly, [CI#6], uh -- we met [CI#6] on -- we go
northbound on Hoover from Bellevue. Once you get past -- before you get to
Santa Monica. What's that little street that veers to the right? There's
a small street.
Q Are you talking right past, uh, Temple or Sunset where Hoover
veers -- or the street off Hoover veers off?
A Hoover veers off to the right a little bit. The small street.
Uh, do we still have no maps here, or anything like that?
MR. ROSENTHAL: No. We've got to bring a map of Rampart.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Well, is there an -- is there an apartment
building with a market across the street from it? A little, uh, market?
A Not a market. Where the street continues to be Hoover. Myra.

Q Myra Street?
A Myra. Yeah. The street -- the little street that veers off to
the right.
Q Okay.
A Hoover goes straight. And just before you get to Santa Monica,
there's a little street named Myra.
Q Okay.
A Uh, right there, [CI#6] drove up. Uh, had it, uh, in something,
placed it on the floor, and drove off.
And Officer Durden -- uh, we pulled up next to it. Officer
Durden picked it up and pulled it into the car.
Q Placed it on the floor, or the ground?
A On the -- on the ground of the grassy area by a tree, uh, on the
floor. The ground, uh, outside of [CI#6]'s car, and [CI#6] left.
DET. HANSON: When we, uh -- we need more on that when we go into the
Ovando shooting again?
MR. ROSENTHAL: We can deal with it. Yeah, we'll deal with -- so we'll
go back to that when they discuss the Ovando shooting with you.
THE WITNESS: I wanted to get that right away.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Because I didn't know if they need to jump on it or
whatever.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Uh, the second issue was -- uhm, I don't have any direct,
uh, knowledge -- or other than I'm aware of some of the parties involved, all
right, as far as the civilian way it goes. Uhm, someone brought to my
attention of a thing that's been going on in West Traffic Division. And it
has to do with the tow truck drivers. You know, the bandit tow truck drivers
that have been going on.
Apparently, they have this, uh -- this deal that they're doing.
Officers are taking pay-offs. All the West Traffic traffic officers are
taking pay-offs. What happens is
-- before, you know how it was what was happening that they, uh -- these tow
truck drivers would listen to the scanner, show up at a scene, the officers
would cite them for, uh, showing up without being called to the scene, things
like that.
Uh, well, what's happening now is these officers are showing up.
And, uh, these tow truck drivers are there. What happens is the officer
doesn't cite them. They tell the civilian person, who was in the accident,
yeah, these people will tow you.
The tow truck drivers are paying the officers between two and
three hundred dollars per car. The tow truck driver, of course, is going to
get his commission from the auto body shop that they're going to take that
car to, as well as, if the person was injured, they get a commission from the
attorney that they're going to refer this person to. It's a thing that's
been going for a long time.
Q BY DET. HANSON: How did you hear about it?
A Someone brought it to my attention.
Q Recently, or a long time ago?
A Recently.
Q Recently. Outside jail or inside?
A I'll tell you this.
MR. ROSENTHAL: You need to tell us who.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'll -- I'll -- I'll say this. Someone wrote a
letter, sent it to one of the commissions or something saying that this was
going on.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Mmnh-mmnh.
THE WITNESS: This person, uh, relayed some information to my wife.
My wife relayed it to me. So, there is somewhere documented along the lines,
someone sent a letter saying, I'm tired of these officers having to -- you
know, taking pay-offs, you know, with these guys -- you know, these tow truck
drivers. And it doesn't just go there. Uhm, some of the instances
that I was given, small instances where all these traffic officers are going
to the body shop. I believe it's called the West Side Body Shop. And the
tow truck company is called the West Side Tow Truck Company.
Uh, officers are going to the auto body shop and getting free
paint jobs. I mean, $2500 paint jobs. They're getting their cars painted.
They're getting, uh, rims for free, uhm, things of this nature.
But the -- I guess, the deal is that for every car that -- and
it's even gone this far where O.P.G. Tow would lift a car, getting ready to
take it off, the tow truck company shows up, -- the private tow truck company
-- and they even negotiate with O.P.G., "Hey, let me take it. Tell the
civilian it's okay for me to take it." O.P.G. is going to get their part of
the money, 'cause they're gonna pay them off. Here. Here's a 150, $200.
And the civilian -- or the civilian tow truck driver now says,
"We're going to handle your car." They take it. They take it to the auto
body shop. The auto body shop is, obviously, going to have an inflated price
for the repairs that are done on the car. They're going to get a commission
from the auto body. Plus, if the person is, uh, -- that they referred to the
auto body goes with the attorney that they use, they also get a commission
from them.
Q Who are the officers?
A The officers? I have no idea. From what I understand is all the
West Traffic officers that are -- that work, uh, West Traffic.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: The person that gave the information to your
wife, do you know who that is?
A Yes.
Okay. You got to tell us.
A Uh, Gina Adler.
Q Okay. Do you know what her position is, or --
A Gina Adler, uh, was seeing one of the tow truck drivers. She had
a relationship with one of them.
Q She's a civilian?
A She's no longer -- yeah, she's a civilian. She no longer is
seeing him. I mean, she talks to him. She's friendly with him. But she's
no longer involved with him. But, I mean, she's aware of it. She -- she
even was working, you know, with them. And it was her boyfriend. So she
knew what the working thing was with them. Uh, she had seen officers.
In fact, she had mentioned that some of the officers, this
weekend, are going with one of the tow truck drivers bike riding, motor-cross
riding or something, with some of the tow truck drivers. They're going with
officers, uh, motorcycle riding and stuff like that.
Q And this is all information you heard from your wife?
A Information that was given from Gina Adler to my wife to me. Uh,
with the incident that I said about rims, a couple officers came over to pick
up some rims from one of the tow truck drivers to where she was staying --
you know, they were staying together. And one of the officers came up to
pick up some rims.
Q BY MR. HANSON: Where Gina was staying? Or your wife?
A Where -- no. Where Gina was staying. Gina and the -- one of the
tow truck drivers.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: What's the relationship between your wife and
Gina?
A My wife's father is married to Gina's sister. So, it's my wife's
stepmother's sister. So, it would be, I guess, technically, my wife's
stepmom.
Q Let's, uhm, -- let's step beyond that a little bit -- A
Okay.
Q -- and ask you, are you aware of any officers, any police
officers, uh, that are employed by any agency other than the Los Angeles
Police Department that were involved in any type of official misconduct?
A No.
Q Okay. Uhm, the incidents involving -- you gave us a list of
officers who you believed were involved in planting narcotics and planting
guns on suspects.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q First of all, other than the Ovando incident, did you ever
personally plant any gun or any narcotics on any -- any arrestee?
A I would have to look at -- remember the book I told you need to
be looked at?
Q Right.
A I'd have to review that, uh, because I believe there is. Where
exactly? 'Cause we're not talking about this, you know -- we're talking
maybe two years, three years ago. I have to look at the book. I have to look
the -- at some reports for the -- to remind me. But I believe there is.
Q Okay. So, you're saying you did it, you're just not certain on
how many occasions?
A Right. And I have to look at the -- I mean, I can't even come
up with a name like that off the top of my head for something that happened
three years ago. It would be very difficult.
Q Okay. So, these -- in order to show you arrest reports or
booking photos, we need -- what type of arrests would we need to pull? Would
they be 11350's? 11351's?
A All arrests. Uh, all of my arrests.
Q Okay.
A I would go as far as saying my arrests from the time I was in
C.R.A.S.H. 'til now. I would pull them just because we can go through them
and things will -- you know, uh, packages, photos in the packages, will
remind me of certain things. Uhm, I believe the detectives already pulled
all of the narcotics packages. All of those have been pulled. And we're
going to go through them, I believe, later on this afternoon.
Q They're going to do some things today regarding -- regarding
that. Names and some other things.
A Okay. Yeah. But the -- the thing that will help me the most is
the packages, uh, the photos, and the reports that are in there.
Q Now, should we be paying attention to the period -- not only that
you were in C.R.A.S.H., but also in F.E.S.?
A Well, we need the reports from F.E.S. because a lot of the money,
uh, skimming was from F.E.S.
Q Okay.
A I would say nothing before Rampart C.R.A.S.H.
Q All right.
A Nothing ever happened before. In other words, from the time I
got to Rampart C.R.A.S.H. on.
Q Now, with respect to the other officers that you named, uhm, and,
again, we, obviously, have to look through their reports and booking photos
like you asked before, were you ever personally present when any of these
officers planted narcotics or guns on a suspect?
MR. MCKESSON: I'm -- I'm not following. Could you read the question
back?
(Reporter read the question back.)
MR. MCKESSON: The only question I have, Richard. I don't know. I
mean are you talking about -- the only question I have, are you talking about
-- because he's talked about numerous incidents. Are you talking about each
incident? It's a kind of open-ended question. And it seems like it maybe
a yes to some and no to the others. So, I don't -- I don't understand.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right. Well, what I'm trying to get at, and it's a
general question, but what I need to know --
MR. MCKESSON: It's a general question. But what I'm saying is his
answer may be yes and no, 'cause he's described numerous incidents. And some
he may have been present. Some he may not have been present.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, the question is were there any incidents
where he was actually present when another officer -- and other than Ovando
-- uh, where another officer planted narcotics or guns on a suspect?
MR. MCKESSON: The problem is, Richard, I think when you were out of
the office he talked about several incidents when other officers planted
guns. I'm not trying to jump on you. But yest- -- the last time you were
here we talked about numerous incidents.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right.
MR. MCKESSON: And one involving, I think, a sergeant, Sgt. Ruiz.
THE WITNESS: Ortiz.
MR. MCKESSON: Ortiz. Another involving an incident where something
was next to a tire. And I'm not trying to jump on you, but I'm worried that
we're going to go back through. Because we spent about an hour talking about
different incidents where things were planted.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Right. Well, let's -- let's just
-- this is -- I'm not going too far on this. I just want to know the
allegations that he made, are they based solely upon hearsay statements that
other people told him, or admissions by other people, or was he actually
there to see some of these --
A All of the above.
Q -- plants take place.
A All of the above. Some are going to be -- some things that I've
witnesses. I'm going to need reports. A lot of the things were get to the
station, somebody has a body that got thumped on. And it's like, hey,
anybody got anything? That type of thing.
Q Okay.
A So, we know what's going to happen. It's just a matter of who's
gonna give who what to, you know. Uh, other things are, you know, people
talking about it. So, everything that you just mentioned.
Q All of the above?
A All of it, yeah.
DET. HANSON: They'll come this afternoon, too, when we're done with
ours.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right. Okay. Do you want to move, uh, on to discuss
Ovando, specifically?
MR. MCKESSON: Yes.
DET. HANSON: Yes. If you're done with, uh --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Yeah. We're -- we're fine. And what we'll do is we'll
-- they -- these detectives will ask you about the Ovando incident. When
we're done with that we'll move onto -- uh, go back into this issue.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Ray, me and my partner have been investigating
Ovando since it came to light a couple weeks ago. And I know that you're
under oath here. But I want to stress to you, you have to be honest about
everything. Okay?
Uh, we have the transcripts and read a little bit about what you
said last time. And we've done our own investigation.
What we want to do, first, is just have you run us through those
two days -- October 11th and October 12th, of '96, the days that you did the
O.P. Those two days.
A Okay. Right.
Q And if you can just kind of run us through it, uh -- uh, briefly.
Uh, giving us as much information, and then we'll go into specifics, uhm,
after you tell us what happened those two days. If you -- like I said -- you
don't have to tell us every little thing. Just maybe a brief overlay. And
then, like I say, we're going to get into specifics anyway about, uh, what
happened.
MR. MCKESSON: Let me say this, Detective. And I'm not trying to be
a jerk. But the only question, in my mind, is, obviously, -- and I've said
this before on the record -- he's testifying here today, and throughout these
sessions, without the benefit of reports and things like that. And I know,
as a lawyer, often times when people testify from memory, things are left
out.
DET. HANSON: Sure.
MR. MCKESSON: And, uh, I am here, even though, he has immunity, and
he's testifying and being truthful. And, honestly, I'm here to kind of
protect him.
DET. HANSON: Right.
MR. MCKESSON: And I will add, just for two reasons. I mean, first of
all, for -- for brevity. I mean, if there's any questions you have, since
you have reviewed the -- what he said before -- if you can ask those specific
questions now. Because my worry is asking him to go over it again.
Inevitably, he's not gonna be able to repeat it word-for-word like he did the
first time.
DET. COX: I understand that.
MR. MCKESSON: I'm not saying you're trying to trick him. But I'm
saying one could look back at two different transcripts, and say wait a
minute, that last time you testified he told us this and he left this out.
I just don't see the purpose, if you know what he said the last time, to ask
him to repeat exactly what he said the last time.
DET. COX: Well, the last time, I don't know how much -- he didn't go
into a whole lot last time.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, let me take this.
MR. MCKESSON: And I'm not being accusatory.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Here's the problem. Is the last time what we did, I,
basically, conducted the interview, got the information I needed to get for
the Writ of Habeas Corpus. Now, since that time, the detectives have had an
opportunity to go through and conduct an investigation. And, now, they need
to sort of, uhm, sort of start from square one, get the information he's got,
and then ask follow-up questions.
And I think it is necessary. We, obviously, all recognize, and
everyone always recognizes that nobody tells the same story the exact same
way two times. It's impossible.
And certain things that are said before might be left out, or
certain things that were left out before might come up. That does not mean
that he's necessarily not telling the truth. It's simply -- uhm, it's life.
And we're all coming in here using our reason, our logic, and our common
sense. Uhm, but I think it makes sense to kind of get -- get it flowing --
get the information out for him to tell the story again with these two
detectives. And they'll ask their questions as he goes on.
MR. MCKESSON: No, I agree. I agree with that. But, also, I'd like
to point out, too, that he hasn't the opportunities like everybody else,
except for me, to review prior transcripts, review prior documents. So, he's
kind of at a disadvantage.
MR. ROSENTHAL: He is. But it's been a couple of years. And we expect
his memory would have been fresher back when it occurred than now.
MR. MCKESSON: Well, if he had some documents to review then --
MR. ROSENTHAL: I mean, the -- the problem, of course, is the O.I.S.
report was not prepared by him. So, most of the reports --
MR. MCKESSON: And -- and I'm not -- the only thing that caused me
concern is when the detective said they reviewed some things before now.
They wanted him to tell the story again. That's the only thing that -- and
that's why I wanted to put this on the record.
MR. ROSENTHAL: All right. Well, let's -- let's go ahead. Why don't
you go ahead and --
Q BY DET. COX: Go ahead. I'm -- I'm sorry. I'm not out to trick
you or anything.
A No. Your last question was -- start with, uh --
Q The O.P., uh, --
A The O.P. the day before?
Q Yes.
A Okay. Because I, actually had forgotten about the O.P. the day
before.
Q Okay.
A I, actually, -- I actually had forgotten why we were there. And
I read it in the newspaper. I don't know how they got it. Must have came
from the O.I.S. report. I think we had gotten some information. And I have
to slow down from time-to-time, 'cause I talk fast. And I forget. Uh, we
had gotten some type of information that it was a burglary or something. And
a bunch of guns were stolen.
And we went to the location for that purpose, to do an O.P. Uhm,
March 11th -- or October 11th, I think you said the date was?
Q Yes. Yes.
A That was the day before the -- the shooting?
Q Yes.
Q Uh, I believe, we had went there and did the same thing we did
the day -- day after. We went to, uh, you want every step-by-step?
Q No, just go ahead. You're doing fine.
A We went to the -- uhm, we went through the building quickly. Uh,
there was some people in there. Uh, we scooted everything out that -- that
we might have saw in there. We went up to, I believe, it's Apartment 407.
The apartment we had said. Uh, and we stayed there for hours, uh, monitoring
what was going on down there.
Q Okay.
A I don't know if we said in the O.I.S. report that we had a chase
car, uh, monitoring. And we were relaying. We didn't.
Q Yes.
A We were just there.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, I don't know what time we ended the O.P. and how long total
we were there, how many hours. But nothing -- nothing came of it. And we
left.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Would you actually have checked every
apartment in the entire building?
A I doubt it. We checked some. Some doors were locked -- you
know, they had padlocks. Some doors were -- I mean, it was just so smelly
that it wasn't -- we couldn't believe somebody would be in there. You could
tell which apartments somebody might have been coming in and out of. 'Cause
they were the least trashed-up ones. Uh, but we did walk through the floors,
you know, the hallways. And some doors were open. We'd look it. But we
didn't check every single door, no.
I think we did say that in the O.I.S. report. But we didn't.
Q Right.
A Uhm, where was I? The next day?
Q BY DET. COX: Mmnh-mmnh.
A Uh, the next day, we, uhm, -- I believe it was a late roll call,
you know, five or six o'clock roll call. And we decided we'll do it one more
time. Let's go back to this, uhm, -- to the O.P. Uh, we were at the O.P.,
I would say probably from eight o'clock. What time did the shooting occur,
again?
Q About 11:45 or 11:40.
A Then probably like 8:00, uh, 8:30 is probably -- 'cause I would
say we were two or three hours in the O.P. So, we probably got there. We
probably went to dinner. Uh, got at the O.P. maybe at like 8:00, 8:30. Uhm,
we're up there, like I said, 'til whenever the shooting occurred. Uh, do you
want me to get into the specifics of the shooting now?
Q You can go ahead and just say how the shooting -- uh, without
being real specific. I know a shooting occurred --
A Right. Uhm --
Q Just briefly, how that went down.
A We were, uhm, -- pretty much everything that was on the diagram
that you had showed me before. You meaning Mr. Rosenthal. Uhm, the diagram
of where we were standing is accurate. Uh, the location of where we were
doing the O.P., the room itself, is accurate. The window that I was looking
out of was accurate. Uhm, the -- the -- the positioning in where the diagram
shows where the shooting occurred by each officer is also accurate. That's
exactly where we were standing. Uhm, I was looking out the window.
Uh, we were -- by the way, we were alternating back and forth.
I would look out the window for about a half hour. And Durden would stand
in the room, walk around, and watching my back, basically.
Q Okay.
A And then, we'd rotate. He would look and I would watch.
On this occasion, I'm looking out the window. Uhm, I have my
earpiece on, uh, for my radio. We always wore earpieces. Uhm, minutes --
uhm, minutes -- obviously, minutes before the actual radio call that we put
out of the shooting, uhm, I hear, uh, Durden talking. I know, on the report,
it says that we heard a bang and somebody ran through the door or whatever.
That didn't occur.
Uh, but I heard Durden saying -- voices. And that's what took
my attention. And then, I hear like a "fuck". I don't mean to curse. But
it was like a -- you know, what the -- I don't know exactly what was said.
But it was like -- there was "fuck" in there, you know, and some other words.
That's when I turned around and started walked to where Durden was.
Uhm, if you -- I don't know if you -- obviously, you've seen the
diagram. Uh, the rooms -- I believe there's a kitchen on this side. Then,
a threshold to a door -- or where would be a door. And then, the living
room. And then there's a chair -- overturned chair.
DET. HANSON: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Okay. From where I was at, at the window, and I started
walking towards, uh, Durden.
Q BY DET. COX: Which window were you at?
A If I had the diagram -- okay. The threshold that separates the
two rooms.
Q Okay.
A The first window right there.
Q Okay.
A Right there. The --
DET. HANSON: The kitchen window.
DET. COX: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, it's the kitchen window.
DET. COX: Okay.
THE WITNESS: And I don't know if there's more than one window. But
it's the first window from the threshold.
DET. COX: Okay.
THE WITNESS: As I walked back towards where Durden was, and his voice,
uh, talking, is where I see Durden. As I'm walking towards Durden is when
I see him pulling his gun out. And he's left-handed. So, I could see him --
I could see his left side. I could see him like reaching -- coming up with
his weapon. I come up with my weapon. Durden points out. I'm watching him.
I'm coming up. Durden fires one round. I fire what I thought was one round.
One round. But it turns out to be, I think I fired three rounds.
DET. COX: Yes.
THE WITNESS: In fact, I told the shooting team that I fired one. And
they counted my rounds. It was, uh -- I think they said three or four.

Q BY DET. COX: I'm sorry?
A Three.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, right after that occurs, Mr. Ovando is laying on the floor.
His head was closest to the door. The entrance to the actual door.
Q Okay.
A I stay covering down on the -- uh, Mr. Ovando. Uh, Officer
Durden, uh, walks out the door and is looking around seeing if there's
anybody else or whatever. Uhm, a few minutes pass. He comes back and
produces -- and if my mind serves me absolutely correct, and I -- I believe
it does -- it was a red very dirty shirt, uhm, that was, uh -- had the weapon
wrapped in.
Uh, he stands right next to -- and very little words are said.
And very few words. I mean, I don't even remember what was said.
Q Between you and him?
A Myself and Durden. Uh, Durden stands right where the defendant
would have been standing. Uh, takes the weapon -- holding the rag and the
weapon, and drops it from chest level down to the ground and let's it fall.

Uhm, this is the one thing that doesn't -- I don't remember
exactly sure whether we called. No, I'm positive that we called, uh, the
C.R.A.S.H. units first, before we called an ambulance. I know we had talked
about that before. I'm almost positive that we called the C.R.A.S.H. units.
And the first unit that showed up was Rios and Montoya. Uh, I believe it
was, uh, Officer Rios who handcuffed the, uh -- the defendant.
Uhm, Officer Durden, uh, was also the one who called the R.A.
Q Okay.
A Officer Durden, during this -- this whole thing, I guess maybe
assumed more of the responsibility because he was doing everything. I don't
know if you can tell in the O.I.S. report, he did all the talking. When they
first go there, he wanted to do all the talking. He wanted to do all the --
even though I was the senior officer. This is one of those few times where
he wanted to get everything out, you know, first.
And we just went with the story. Or I just went with the story.

Q Okay. Uhm, that was general. And, now, we're going to back up
and just get into some specifics.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And I understand it was three years ago.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And we're gonna probably bring up some stuff that you may have
left out, that you forgot. Uhm, and it may refresh your memory when I tell
you something.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Uh, as best as you recollect, I think your roll call started at
five o'clock, that night on Friday, October 11th.
A That's the time it normally starts But I -- I can't be positive.

Q Okay. Normally, what kind of car did you guys drive when you
were working?
A Back then, I believe we were driving the Taurus back then, still.

Q And what color was that?
A Light blue.
Q A light blue car? A Taurus?
A Geez. You know what the problem is? We were driving a light --
I believe we were driving the light blue Taurus. I also drove a gray car.
But the person that dropped us off -- and -- and this is coming back to me
now. Uh, Officer Montoya
-- either Montoya or Rios dropped us off there.
In other words, we didn't just park our -- our Taurus or whatever
car we were using and left it there. Somebody dropped us off. We hopped
over the fence and went in.
Q Okay. We're at the first day. We're at the first day.
A I'm sorry?
Q We're talking the first day, October 11th.
A October 11th?
Q BY DET. HANSON: Yeah. We're going to start all over and start
from the day before the shooting.
A Okay.
Q Okay. Just --
Q BY DET. COX: Well, you did the O.P. on that day, you said. Did
-- did Rios and Montoya drop you off on that day? Let me -- let me refresh
your memory a little bit. Is the O.I.S. report -- is it completely false
when you talked to the Homicide -- or the detectives from Robbery/Homicide?
MR. MCKESSON: The only problem I have with the question, detective,
is saying "completely false" is kind of difficult for him. He doesn't have
it in front of him to say everything is false. Because part of what I assume
was included in the O.I.S. report was a diagram that was brought here last
time.
DET. COX: Right.
MR. MCKESSON: Which Officer Perez testified was accurate. Q
BY DET. COX: Okay. Yeah, that was kind of a general statement. Uhm,
In the O.I.S. report, you said -- well, I think all of you said that, uh, you
had driven your car there.
A I'm sure we drove it there.
Q Okay. Do you remember? I'm sorry.
A If we drove it there, we didn't park it in front of the location.
I'm -- if I'm remembering correctly, we drove there. Uh, maybe parked a few
blocks away. I want to say off one of the main streets, uh, which would be
maybe Alvarado.
Q It might refresh your memory the fact that you parked your car.
And you parked it on 12th Street, just west of Lake, and you're doing an O.P.
-- which doesn't sound like that would be --
A Mmnh, yeah.
Q -- what you'd call really sharp police work, if you're parking
your police car right at the O.P.
A No. I think I remember somebody dropping us off.
Q But that's the O.I.S. report. And that's what Rios and Montoya,
you, and Durden said, --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- that you parked your car there. And you went upstairs.
A I remember being dropped off. I remember parking, I believe,
somewhere several blocks away and someone just kind of driving us up. And
we jumped out. 'Cause, in order to get into the building, you have to hop
a big fence on the 12th Street side -- on the south side of the street.
Q Correct.
A Uh, and we definitely -- I don't -- I don't believe we parked our
car right there where everybody can walk by and see it.
Okay.
A That wouldn't be, uh, --
Q Let me -- let me ask my partner something here.
A Okay.
Q Okay. Uhm, we'll get to the car thing more specifically on the
day after. Okay. 'Cause the day before seems -- it's a little bit, uh,
hazy, since it actually wasn't part of the officer-involved shooting report.
A That was uneventful. There was really nothing that stood out.

Q Okay. On that day, on that Friday -- and I know you said that
you now remember that you may have done an O.P. on that Friday, the day
before the shooting.
A No, I know we did.
Q Okay. Do you remember being up there for -- as you said, you
searched the rooms, or the floors?
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q But you didn't search every floor -- I mean, every room?
A Right.
Q Because there's probably --
A A bunch of rooms up there.
Q A bunch of rooms?
A Right.
Q And the building, was it undergoing renovation?
A It was abandoned. I don't think it was undergoing renovation,
at that time. It was completely, uh, boarded-up. All the windows were
boarded-up. Uh, all the first floor windows, I believe, were boarded-up.
Uh, you know, chained down. The doors were chained down.
Q Do you remember your O.P. at all on that day -- Friday?
A Do I remember it?
Q Yes.
A I mean, something specific about it, or --
Q Yes. Does anything stand out that day that you can remember
today?
Q BY DET. HANSON: Where you might have parked, how you might have
gotten into the building, if it was the same way you got it in just from the
day before? Uhm, you mentioned something about letting people -- uh, kicking
people out prior to you doing the O.P. Do you remember what rooms they were
in, or if they were near the room you were doing the O.P. in, those kind of
things.
A Okay.
Q That's what we're trying to get.
A Okay. As far as how we got inside the building, uh, yes. We got
in the building the same way. We had to hop a fence. And I believe towards
the back of the building, on the south side of the building, there was a door
that open. Uh, if you hop the fence on the 12th Street side and walked
south, across that little small like parking lot -- the cemented area and
made left turn, like an eastbound turn, on the south side of the building,
on the -- as soon as you made that left -- on the left side -- there's a door
open.
You following me so far?
DET. HANSON: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Right there is how we got in. There's some stairs -- uh,
some small stairs that lead up to the first landing. And then you can walk
in, whichever way the building goes. Uhm, but that is the way we got in the
building.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Where would your car have been parked?
A I'm a little confused now. When you say that my car was parked
right there. Because I remember.
Q No. Your car -- we confused you a little bit. The car parking,
uh, we don't know where you car was parked on --
A Okay.
Q -- the day before the shooting.
A Okay.
Q We know where you car was parked on the day of the shooting,
according to the officer-involved shooting team, --
A Okay.
Q -- but we don't know about the car on the 11th. And that's --
that's what we're wondering if you can remember that. A Yeah, I --
I remember being dropped off. So, I'm assuming, if we would have parked
right there, we wouldn't need to be dropped off. You see what I'm saying?
But I remember being dropped off. Now, am I confusing it with the 12th?
It's a possibility. But, for some reason, I remember -- I remember
-- mmnh.
Q Well, once we get into the 11th, and my partner gets into the day
of the shooting --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- and we might have to tell you what we know about the car
thing. Maybe that will refresh your memory on the difference between the two
days.
A Okay.
Q But, at this point, you don't remember where your car was, or how
you got to there on the day before?
A On the day before, no.
Q Okay.
A On the day of, I'm positive that we were dropped off. Q
Okay.
A I'm a little bit confused now on the day before.
Q Okay. So, go on with --
A Uh, the other -- the other question was, uhm, how we got in the
building, uhm, searching the building.
Q What you did -- yes. What you did in the building.
A We searched, uh, the building. Uhm, we didn't go through every
door. I know we had, uh, found, or we had, uhm, encountered, uhm, maybe two
groups of people.
Uhm, I believe one group was, uh, some females and -- well, maybe
three females and a couple of males. Uhm, --
Q Do you know what floor that was on?
A I couldn't tell you.
Q Okay.
A I know we encountered them, told them to get out of the building.
And they got out of the building. Uhm, and --
Q BY DET. COX: Did you door-knock that location, or the door was
just open, or do you remember?
A You know, to be even honest, I don't know if I found them in an
apartment or in the hallway. I know we encountered some people. But it
wasn't --
Q Were lights on in the building, or was it completely dark?
A And this is the day before, right?
Q Yeah, we're still talking the 11th. Yes.
DET. HANSON: Yeah. We'll let you know when we switch. It gets a
little confusing.
THE WITNESS: I almost want to say that I think in the hallways there
were lights. But I'm not positive. But I think there was actually lights
in the hallway.
Q BY DET. COX: Okay. This other group of people, you may have
confronted two groups of people inside. Three females and two males, in one
--
A That's one group. That's all one group.
Q Did you ever knock on any doors, test them?
A If I went into any of the rooms, I didn't knock on any of them.
I just went in.
Q You just went in?
A They were all supposed to be abandoned. They were all -- do you
know what? There may be even more people. I think I remember we found like
a female Black, uh -- uh, drug addict, or something. I remember shooing out
of there. Now that comes to mind. Uh, and she was just like laying on the
couch inside one of the apartments. We just told her, "Get out of the
building." And I'm assuming she knew how to get out of the
building, because she got in the building.
Q Is that a 18th Street hangout?
A That building?
Q Yes.
A Oh, yeah. That's 18th Street corner right there.
Q Okay.
A That's as big as you get.
Q Uhm, nothing else comes to mind, as far as you door-knocking and
telling some, uh, gang members to leave?
A I want to say that there was a -- a older -- I don't know if I'm
confusing it with something else. I think there was a manager to that
building. An older maybe White or male Hispanic that looked kind of White --
maybe grayish hair.
But I don't know if I encountered him before or after the
shooting had occurred. You know what I mean? Because I know we went back
to the location a couple of times. And he was there. But, now, I can't
recall whether we had encountered him on those particular days or not. I'm
not sure.
But I think there was a -- someone who was staying up there who
was calling himself the manager, or the -- who was watching the building or
something like that.
I don't know if he was the manager or wasn't. But that's what
he was telling -- saying that that's what he was.
Q Okay. Uhm, did you do the O.P. in the same room both days?
A Yes, I believe so.
Q 407 from what you remember?
A I believe so. Yes, sir.
Q Okay. Nothing happened that night that stands out in your mind?
A On the 11th?
Q The day before.
A I want to say that we might have left and came back on that day.
In other words, we did an O.P. for a couple of hours, left, and may have come
back. But I -- I -- the 11th is kind of -- it was just an uneventful thing.
You know what I mean. It's not standing out in my mind.
But, for some reason, I think that we were there, left, and came
back on that same day -- on the 11th.
Q And I know I'm trying to make you go back several years, when you
say you left, were you gone an hour? Two hours? Would you reflect it on
your log if you did something like that?
A Probably not.
Q Okay.
A I -- I doubt it. It'd be interesting to look at it and see if
we did that. But I doubt it. I doubt it.
Q There's a possibility that you did leave and maybe come back and
continue the O.P.?
A Yeah. Something like that just kind of stands out in my mind
that we left maybe to go either assist somebody, or somebody had something
going on. And we went to go see what they had going. And maybe it was like
nothing, or -- in other words, if a Rampart C.R.A.S.H. unit says, "Hey, I'm
415 -- uh, I'm Code 6 on a 415 group, uh, Code 6 George" or whatever, we're
going to say, well, forget the O.P. We'll go see what they got going and
help them out.
Q How would you get there?
A Get back out of the building and walk, or have somebody pick us
up, or something like that.
Q You couldn't walk if it was across town. Obviously, you're --
A No, no. Walk to wherever our car was.
Q Oh, okay. So, you don't know. You may have parked your car.
Still we don't know on that day. Or someone may have dropped you off.
A If, -- when we were -- if -- on either day when we go to the
location, we're not parking our car. We're not -- we're not like leaving it
at the station and have somebody drop us off.
Q Okay.
A We're driving to the location, maybe parking two blocks away, or
-- or parking in a driveway we know no one's gonna look into, or something
like that, and then have somebody come and just drop us off real quick. And
we run in the building.
That's what we do. So, I'm thinking that on the 11th, we were
there, stayed awhile, left. And then, came back. That's what I'm thinking.

Q And the part about the chase car with Rios and Montoya?
A That was all made up.
Q The whole thing was made up?
A Yes.
Q On both days, 11th and 12th, both days with Rios and Montoya?
A Yes. The only reason we -- uh, we said it was Montoya and Rios
is 'cause that was their area. And they were patrolling it. You know, they
were doing their thing in that area.
Q This was their gang?
A That was their gang, uh, assignment. So, I believe, it was them
who had dropped us off. Uh, and they were still -- so, you know, they're
doing their thing in that area, driving around, or doing whatever.
Q BY DET. HANSON: So, they knew you were there?
A Oh, yeah, they knew I was in the building, yeah.
Q On both days?
A Yes.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Let's stop for a second and give the reporter a chance
to catch up.
THE WITNESS: And I just wanted to answer your question. You had asked
if, uh, they knew we were in the building? Yes, they knew we were in the
building. Montoya and Rios knew we were in the building. And Sgt. Ortiz
always knew we were in the building.
Q BY DET. HANSON: On both days?
A Yes. Yes, he did know.
Q But they weren't cruising the nearby blocks?
A No, not the way we described it to the officer-involved shooting
team, as far as them --
Q They were doing their own thing? They were doing their own --
A Sgt. Ortiz was probably at the office, or doing whatever. And
Montoya and Rios were doing their own thing, whatever it was.
Q BY DET. COX: Let's go to the next day.
A Okay.
Q October 12th, do you remember that day fairly clearly because of
the shooting?
A I remember the events. Uhm, I remember some of the events
clearly, because they stand out. Certain things stand out.
Q Uhm, that evening, you went to roll call again. I'm just letting
you know that's what you did.
A Right.
Q Normal things. And going back to -- uh, going back to the
location, 1209 Lake.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Just so we can go over it again. You don't remember how you got
there. You could have been dropped off?
A No, I remember how we got there on the 12th.
Q Okay.
A I'm almost positive that we drove there. We drove our car,
whichever car we were driving, whether it was the Taurus or the gray, uh --
uh, Crown Vic. Because I -- I was driving both cars. I was driving both
cars. Uh, but I am certain that we parked probably somewhere over -- you
know, over by the convalescent hospital around the corner?
There is a convalescent, uh, elderly place. That's where we
normally would park at any time we were gonna walk into the neighborhood or
something.
Q And where would that be? The convalescent hospital. What
street?
A What street is that, uh, just, uhm, --
Q I understand it's Grandview, then Hoover.
A Somewhere over, uhm, -- okay. That's Lake Street and 12th
Street. And we're going west from there. That's Grandview?
Q That's what I was told, yes.
A And then the next one is, uh, Hoover.
Q Hoover.
A On Hoover, if you go south a little bit, uh, is there a
convalescent hospital right there?
Q I'm not that familiar with it.
A Oh, I thought you guys have been out to it. Uhm, there should --
uh, I believe that's the street. Hoover. And there should be a convalescent
hospital right there.
Q Okay.
A And I believe that's where we would have parked.
Q Okay.
A Uh, and I'm almost positive that we got dropped off.
Q Let me back up. Or let me stop you there. On the O.I.S. report
it indicates that you parked your car there on 12th just west of Lake, and
that there was no activity going on. And you thought maybe it was because
of your car being parked there?
A This is on the 12th?
Q On the 12th. And that you decided it's a good idea to move your
car because your police car was outside. Maybe that's why there was no
activity. So, I believe it was Officer Durden that went down to the second
floor and threw his keys out to Officer Rios and Montoya?
A You're absolutely right.
Q Is that what happened?
A That's true. That's true. On the 12th?
Q Yes.
A That is true.
Q Okay.
A That is true.
Q So, did you walk with Officer Durden to the second floor? Or did
you stay at the O.P.?
A No, I stayed at the O.P. I remember that.
Q So, he went by himself?
A He went by himself, yes.
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. HANSON: And that's -- that's the story that was given
to the shooting team? Or that's the truth?
A No, that is actually what occurred. Yeah, that -- that part
about, uh, somebody coming over to move our car.
Q Okay.
A I mean, you just refreshed our memory. Yeah.
Q Okay.
A Durden left where I was -- 407. I'm assuming he had to walk
several flights of stairs. Somehow he had to get the keys to Montoya --
whoever it was that moved our car. I do remember that now, because we're
thinking why is it so quiet? And then, we thought, our car is down there.
I do remember that now. That does refresh my memory.
Q BY DET. COX: To refresh your memory a little bit more, uhm, do
you remember a burglary occurring, where all these guns were taken? Now,
whether that was the reason that you really went to 1209 Lake Street, I don't
know. Other than it was an 18th Street hangout?
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q But there were a lot of guns that were missing out of Pomona from
a bunch of guns being stolen?
A I don't know where exactly the information came from, but it was
said to us in roll call. So, the idea of, you know, go do an O.P. out there
was a good idea. So, they go, yeah, go do it. Uhm, but I don't know where
this information came from. Q Do you remember when you went to the O.P.
that day, what was in your mind at the O.P.? Why did you do the O.P. on 18th
Street, at that location, on that day? Did it have anything to do with the
guns, because the guns were stolen out of Pomona and was 18th Street. They
didn't know which 18th Street gang it was, or which clique it was.
So, I mean, sitting here today, can you say that you went to that
18th Street location just because you -- there was a lot of gang activity
there, or you went there specifically for the guns?
A Well, firstly, I don't even know why they said for us to do it.
Because Montoya and whoever else was handling 18th Street, that would have
been their assignment. My assignment is up in the north end, Temple Street
and -- and La Mirada gangs, things like that. I know that we had gotten
information in roll call that, I guess, there was some Pomona place that got
burglarized and some 18th Street members were involved.
Whether they said a clique or not, I don't know. I know that we
said in the roll call was what are we going to do about it? Well, you know,
what game plan do we have? What's going on with this?
And, I believe, that's why we did it two days in a row. Because,
you know, they wanted us to look at the place. So, I believe, we agreed,
"Yeah, okay. We'll -- we'll go O.P. it. And we'll let, uh, you know, let
you guys know if we come up with something."
Uh, so I know, for a fact, that our -- our reason for going there
was because of this information regarding guns stolen from Pomona by 18th
Street gang members. Because, normally, -- in fact, if I look back now,
there's very few, uh, O.P.'s that I've ever done in 18th Street. That's not
my gang. That's not the gang I'm assigned to.
So, I mean, I don't even know why they, uh, told us to do it, or
why we got assigned, you know, to do it. I don't know why Montoya didn't get
it.
But, at any rate, we were told, -- you know, we did it. We vol-
-- we either volunteered to go O.P. it for awhile, or --
Q Was there an ulterior motive why you would volunteer yourself to
do it?
A No, not really. No.
Q No?
A Not that I can think of, no.
Q Do you remember door-knocking a location on -- I'm going to step
back to the 11th, the day before --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- door-knocking an apartment on the same floor you were at right
down the hallway from where you were located?
A On our floor?
Q On your -- on your floor.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Ray, what we're going to show you is a, uh, --
a diagram of the 4th floor in the general area of, uh, Room 407. Okay. Have
you look at it and see if that's the way you remember it? And then, we'll
ask some questions on that.
A Okay.
Q BY DET COX: Let me walk around and just show you this, Ray.
Obviously, not to scale. At the top of the page is 12th Street. We're
looking north, the top of the page. Okay. This is, uh, Lake Street.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q It runs north and south. This is the apartment building.
A Okay.
This part here -- it's an H-type of location. And it's an H-
shape. You have an apartment building back here. Apartment building up
here. And then, you have a long hallway that connects these two buildings
with two courtyards.
A Okay.
Q Do you remember that, at all? Vaguely?
A Vaguely.
Q Okay. Right here, about the center of the page, on the right-
hand side, is Apartment 407.
A Okay.
Q And that's where your O.P. was at. Between -- on to Lake Street.
A Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Just for the record, what we're going to do
is let's mark this as Exhibit 1 for the transcript. We'll give a copy to the
court reporter and ask her to place it at the back of the transcript.
Go ahead.
Q BY DET. COX: Okay. Exhibit No. 1.
A Okay.
Q Okay. Here's 407.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q The elevator is right across the hallway from it. But you may
not remember that or not.
A I'm sorry. No, I don't remember an elevator at all.
Q Okay. You were door-knocking this location here, 410?
MR. MCKESSON: Was the question, does he remember door-knocking?
Q BY DET. COX: Do you remember door-knocking the location 410 or
411?
A No, I --
Q There were actual people living in 411.
A There was people living there?
Q Living there.
A I don't remember. Uh, like I said, some doors were like locked.
So, we wouldn't get in it.
Q Right.
A Uhm, so --
Q No. 410 -- someone knocking on 410 and someone answering the
door, and you telling them that they had to leave?
A Was it an old female?
Q Two male -- two male Hispanics --
A Males?
Q -- young, 16 to 19 years old. One of them being Javier Ovando.

Q BY DET. HANSON: The day before.
A The day before? Now, the day before, were there females there,
too?
DET. COX: Possibly.
DET HANSON: Possibly.
THE WITNESS: Well, that might have been the day before that we had --
the people that we had run out.
Q BY DET. COX: One female. Possibly just one female?
A No, because I -- I felt that there was like a
boyfriend/girlfriend thing going on.
Q Okay.
A 'Cause there was probably two or three females and a couple of
males.
Q Do you remember that you saw them in that apartment building and
ordered them out? And that's right down the hall from where your O.P. is at.
That's why I thought it would really trigger your mind.
A No.
Q It doesn't?
A Not -- not on this floor. Not right here.
Q Okay. Javier Ovando and another person in that location, and a
third person, says that you came to the door with Officer Durden and told
them to leave.
A On the 11th? On the day before?
Q On the 11th.
A On this floor?
Q Right there.
A It's possible. But I don't think it was on this floor. This --
that would have been awfully close to our -- our O.P.
Q Right.
Q BY DET. HANSON: But that would have been a place you would have
checked, though.
A Sure.
Q Checked the doors, maybe looked inside.
A Yeah.
Q So --
A Now, it's possible that they were there the day before, like I
said, and we ran out a few people.
Q BY DET. COX: On the 11th?
A But I don't think it was on the same floor. Because, I mean, we
could have easily gone down to the 3rd floor and even been closer to the
people.
Q All three people we interviewed separately. And they all said
the same thing.
A On the this floor?
Q The 4th floor. Yeah. Now, some of these people haven't seen
each other in three years.
A Yeah. I don't -- I -- and this was the day before? This is the,
uh -- on the 11th?
Q This is the day before.
Q BY DET. HANSON: The people you did kick out of the building, did
you walk them down?
A I think we just told them to leave.
Q You just told them to leave?
A Yeah.
Q You don't remember walking them down a little ways, and then --
A I couldn't even tell you. I -- I remember there was a couple of
males and some females. But I couldn't tell you what they even look like
right now. I couldn't tell you -- I could tell you they were Hispanics. But
I couldn't tell you anything more than that.
Q BY DET. COX: But if you saw 18th Street gang members, that you
thought were 18th Street gang members, uhm, down the hall from you, you'd
probably kick them out?
A Well, yeah.
Q Right?
A You're talking down here at 410?
Q Yeah, at 410. Yes.
A Oh, sure.
Q Since your O.P. is there at 407.
A Absolutely.
Q Okay. Getting back to the 12th, that same day, did you door-
knock that same location, run into the same people, you and Officer Durden,
and one of you was visibly upset saying, hey, I told you guys to leave
yesterday, and you're back here today?
A No.
Q You don't remember that?
A I remember the day before, uhm, on the 11th. Let me think if on
the next day we even kicked anybody out.
Q Okay. Do you know what Javier looks like?
A Well, I've seen his picture. I mean, I know -- I remember seeing
him in court. Uhm, but I guess he has hair, now, or something, or --
Q Well, he's growing -- his hair is short. But this is not Javier.
That's a picture of, uh, Mousey, who is Alex Macias, or Jose Lara.
A Okay.
Q He was also in that -- in the same room and said that you came
in that room two days in a row, and said that you kicked him out on the 12th.
But only him. You kept Javier Ovando in the room.
A No. I did kick out some people, or we kicked out some people the
day before. We kicked out several people. For some reason, I keep
remembering a female Black transient-type. Q That's a possibility.

A A drug user. Uh, I don't remember this guy at all. But I know
there -- like I said, there was about five people. And I don't know whether
they were in a room or like in the hallway or something. And I remember
seeing them. I remember telling them, "Get out of the building."
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Do you remember whether they were gang
members, or appeared to be gang members or drug addicts?
A I want to say that if they were gang members, we probably would
have detained them for a long time. If we just told them to get out of the
building, -- I mean, females, it's hard to tell whether they're -- you know,
you're a gang member. But the male -- if this guy -- if this guy -- I mean,
just we saw -- uh, I'm sure we would have talked to him for awhile. I mean,
he would have been --
Q BY DET. COX: Well, you had talked to him the day before, on the
11th, and -- excuse me -- wrote an F.I. on them. A We did? Okay.
That --
Q That's what they claim.
A Oh, I thought you were saying that we had an F.I. Obviously,
then -- then it was him. And, obviously, the next day, I don't remember.
I don't even remember him, you know, the first day. I know we stopped like
five people. Five, uh, people that were together. And I'm saying three
females, two males. That's what I remember. Were they these people? I
don't know.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: They would have been separate from the Black
female?
A Yeah, the Black female was like sleeping on a couch. She was
just like a -- a drug-user. She was sleeping on a couch by herself totally
separate. And I definitely don't remember being on the 4th floor. I
definitely don't. I mean, that would have been -- in fact, I know that we
picked this 407 because it was the quietest little area. I mean, because we
could have just went to 307, or 107, right at ground level and looked out.
But I remember going up there and thinking -- we looked around,
and I think -- and I thought we said that this was the best -- best place.

Q BY DET. COX: So, I mean, it's -- it's probably a moot point for
me to even bring up on the 12th, since you don't remember them on the 11th,
then you don't remember them on the 12th.
A No. So, you're saying we stopped them on the 11th and on the
12th?
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: He's asking if you recall stopping this guy at
all.
A No, I don't -- I don't remember stopping this guy at all. Uh,
I do remember stopping some guys on the 11th.
Q BY DET. COX: Okay. But on the 12th, no?
A On the 12th? Oh. On the 12th? Not really.
Q On the 12th, this gentleman?
A No. I'm sorry.
Q Go ahead.
A No, I was going to say -- no. I just -- I was -- I was thinking
maybe, you know, I just don't -- I don't remember him. That I -- on the --
I do remember the first day. But on the second day, especially not right
there, right where our O.P. is. Definitely not.
Q Right. One of them drove us by the location and showed us, uhm,
where the location was at. And it was -- they, initially, said it was 409,
uh, which is at the front of the building. But before we knew where 409 was,
they said it was on the opposite side of 407, back against that back wall,
which is where 410 is.
And I'm sure that they probably mean 410. They just didn't have
their numbers correct at 409. Because they said that it did not -- the
window did not look over Lake Street. And they said it was opposite of 407.
So that would be 410. And there was someone living in 411 because the
O.I.S. team did F.I.'s on the people on the night of the shooting. And they
were not home that night. Uh, they were out until three o'clock in the
morning. So, we know that these people weren't living in 411.
A Okay.
Q It had to be 410. This guy here, Jose, the photograph --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- says that on the 12th, probably a half hour or so before the
shooting, you and Durden door-knocked on the location. He had the door
barred because they had been smoking cocoa puffs. Do you know what cocoa
puffs are?
A Uh, like rock cocaine mixed with, uh, some other -- or marijuana.

Q Cigarettes or marijuana, yes.
A Okay.
Q And it makes them paranoid. So, they put a bar across the door.
They were squatters there, for the most part.
A Okay.
Q And they had mattresses in -- inside that location. Do you
remember going into a place that, uh --
A Well, a lot of the rooms had mattresses. That doesn't stand out.
Q Okay. Doesn't trigger your mind?
A No.
Q He opens the door. One of you is -- is upset. Whether it's you
or Durden upset at the fact that now it's two days in a row that you told
these guys they can't be there. And you told them they had to leave.
DET. HANSON: They recognize you from the day before.
THE WITNESS: The only thing I was getting ready to say, that I was
thinking, was that on the day before -- the first day --
DET. COX: The 11th?
THE WITNESS: The 11th. Remember when we said we were there -- and,
actually, some things are starting to come to me here. When we said that,
uh -- well, when I said that we did the O.P., we were there for awhile, but
we left, I think one of the reasons we left was because there was people
around. And we just said they're, obviously, gonna know we're in here, or
something like that. We were thinking, obviously, somebody is going to know
that we're in here. So, we left.
And I think we made it real obvious that we left like in the --
in the clear open, in other words. We just left. And then we came back.
That's probably why we left and came back. I'm thinking that on the 11th
some things went on.
In other words, we went there. We found some people
-- too many people We told everybody to get out of the building. And we
left the building like we just came there to empty the building, and left.
And then, came back later on.
Q BY DET. COX: Because your log shows you were there for about
three hours.
A Three hours?
Q On the 11th.
A From like 8:30 'til like --
Q Something like that.
A Yeah.
Q BY DET. HANSON: But what you're saying, you're accurate.
A What's that? That I left and came back?
Q Yes.
A Yeah, I -- I -- it is vague.
Q Uh, your memory is correct.
A I believe that we went in the building. And some of it is
starting to come to me. We went in the building. Uh, we -- like I said, we
found like five people all together in one area. We found a female. We
might have found an older White or maybe Hispanic male who looks White.
In other words, there was a lot of people seeing us. So, it
would be difficult for us to do an O.P. because everybody's leaving out of
the building. And they're gonna go, "Hey, there's cops in the building."
We knew nothing was going to happen. So, we left and made it real clear to
them that we were leaving. But then, when came back later that evening.
Q BY DET. COX: What's later, though?
A Maybe an hour or so, I'm thinking.
Q Okay. What -- what did you do for that hour that you don't
indicate -- show on your log?
A I have no idea.
Q Well, what I'm -- what I'm asking you, Ray, is did you -- were
you doing stuff that's -- you couldn't put on the log?
A No. You know, our log -- if you look at our log, it was very
generic.
Q I know. I saw it.
A We have very -- just blocks of time in the area of this area.
Q Well, that's what I'm wondering. So, what do you guys do in that
block of time, where it says, "I'm patrolling this gang area for 30 minutes,
45 minutes, or an hour. And no gang activity. Checked area -- no gang
activity."
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q 'Cause that's almost every line. Checked area. And there's no
-- I mean, what do you guys like when you leave there?
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Where do you go?
A I have no idea where we went.
Q Is it common practice, though?
A What do you mean "common practice"?
Q As far as you set up and do something and then go -- see, you
guys weren't on the air. You, basically, weren't on the air.
A Right.
Q You didn't have --
A Well, we used different frequencies.
Q You used 181 Boy?
A Right.
Q Right?
A Right.
Q BY DET. HANSON: 181 Boy Simplex?
A Right.
Q BY DET. COX: It's a C.R.A.S.H. frequency?
A Well, it's not a C.R.A.S.H. frequency. But we used it.
Q That's what you guys used?
A Right.
Q Okay. You can't recall, like when you left, what you did that
night, if you were up there for an hour on the 11th?
A I can't even say -- well, let me back up a little bit and make
it more clear.
Q Okay.
A I can't even say there was an exact hour that we were gone. As
I'm talking to you, some things are starting to come to my mind, that we had
left, because we felt it was heated. They're gonna -- whoever's leaving the
building they're gonna, say, "Hey, the cops are up there."
And, so we left. We came back again later. How long did it take
us to get back later? I don't know. Where did we go during that 45 minutes,
an hour, hour and 15 minutes? I can't tell you. I just don't remember. It
doesn't stand out. We might have just got back in our car, okay,
let's just drive up -- back up north around our area for a while. And then
we'll come back and -- and hit it later and see what's going on -- if
anything's going on.
Q And if anything was to happen in that time where it shows that
you're on your O.P., and you get in a shooting, two miles from you're O.P. --
A Well, the -- the log would reflect that -- 'cause we don't do the
log as we go.
Q I know.
A Most of the time the logs done at the end of the night, uh, as
best you can remember the night, that's when the log is done, you know.
Q Okay. This guy here, Jose --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- on the photograph, he's seen you before --
A He looks real familiar, though.
Q -- uh, driving around. His nickname is, uh, -- was Nene.
MR. MCKESSON: I thought you said Mousey?
DET. COX: We said Mousey. He goes by Nene and Mousey. N-e-n-e.
Q BY DET. COX: Uhm, which, I guess, stands for baby?
A Kid.
Q Kid?
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q He also goes by Mousey. His new name is Mugsy. So, but he's
seen you before driving a gray unmarked vehicle.
A Gray? Like a Crown Vic?
Q Well, he didn't -- we didn't ask him. I didn't know what kind
of car you drove. He just said he's seen you before driving around. Didn't
know who you were. But saw you on the night of the 11th. And again saw you
on the night of the 12th.
So, I mean, he -- he knows who you are. He knew that you drove
a gray -- a gray car, which me and my partner didn't even know that until you
told us today.
A Yeah, we -- we do have a -- well, I've used it. Because I think
back then, I was using the Taurus. But I do have a Crown Vic that I was
using. But, actually, no. If you look at the logs --
Q Hold on one second. Let her catch up.
A If you check up -- these things are just popping in my head as
I go. If you guys have the log for that day, Officer Cohan and Officer
Brehm, I had given them that car. The only time I used that car was -- and
they're in charge of 18th Street. Uh, the only time I would have used that
car, if they weren't working that night.
Q Okay. I --
A But during that time, I was mostly using my, uhm, Taurus. The
blue Taurus.
Q Okay. He didn't say he saw you in the car that night. Actually
--
A Oh.
Q -- Javier Ovando sees you in the light blue car on the night of
the 11th.
A Okay.
Q He does see you in that car. He's -- Javier says that you came
in the, uh, place. You kicked them out. They left. They go across the
street to another building. They watch you leave -- you and Durden leave --

A Through the front?
Q -- a half hour later. He didn't say -- 'cause your car was
parked on 12th Street. He sees you leave a half hour later. We asked what
kind of kind did you get in, 'cause we didn't know what type of car it was.
And he says it was a light blue car.
A Okay.
Q So, uhm, Javier also saw you on the night of the 11th after you
kicked him out of the apartment. They went across and watched you leave.
And they went back in after you had left.
A Which is probably when we got back.
Q Which is -- I don't know if you ever came back that night.
A Yeah.
Q I don't know if it was the first or second time, or whatever,
since everyone's memory is a little unclear.
A We came back -- I'm sorry. We came back the second -- uh, after
we left, and we made it real -- in other words, we didn't sneak out of the
building through the back like we did going in. We made it real obvious and
just left like right through the front. Because we wanted people to think,
they're gone. They've left, or whatever.
Q BY DET. HANSON: That's what -- why they saw you then?
A That's -- of course. Uh, I let him -- you know, we let them see
us. No problem. Okay, the officers are leaving. They can get back to their
activity. We came back later that night. I know that. We were there for
some time.
Q BY DET. COX: Any time that you -- it clicks back into your mind
that you think that you may have knocked on the door, and kicked somebody
out, just let me know.
A Okay.
Q I'm not gonna continue to ask you that.
A Okay.
Q Because I figure if it clicks in your mind, you may tell me.

A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Okay?
A Right.
Q The night of the 12th, after you kick Mousey out, you hold on to
Javier.
A I never said I --
Q No, I know you didn't.
A Okay.
DET. HANSON: We're telling you --
THE WITNESS: Okay.
DET. HANSON: -- what we have been told and have learned. THE
WITNESS: Okay.
DET. HANSON: So, see, if that --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, let me just stop and ask one question.
Am I understanding you correctly that you're saying that the night before the
shooting --
A Right.
Q -- it is possible that there were two male Hispanics, a female
Hispanic, that you would have kicked out of 410. And you don't remember or
are you saying that it definitely didn't happen?
A Well, the 410 I don't remember. I do remember kicking out some
males and some females early when we first got in the building.
Q Right.
A -- as we're cleaning everyone out. We left. And then, a few --
or I don't know how many minutes, we returned later. Uh, now, did we see
them again in the building that day again? I don't remember. I really
don't.
Q So, it could have happened but you just don't remember?
A I don't. But I -- I have a real problem saying that it was 410.
That I have a real problem with. I -- they -- yeah, they were in there.
Some -- uh, some people were in there. I just don't remember being here.
I don't.
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: And here being 410?
A 410, I'm sorry.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry.
Q BY DET. HANSON: But you -- since your O.P., though, was at 407,
though, it doesn't make sense that you would have checked those apartments
right next to where you are doing your O.P.?
A Well, I'm not saying that I didn't check them.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, there's a possibility that -- I couldn't tell you which
apartments -- absolutely each one that I checked. That's impossible. Uhm,
I'm -- I'm sure -- you know, when we got up to this landing -- or to this
certain area here, uh, Durden would maybe check a couple over here. Say this
doors knocked, and I would look over here.
In other words, we just kind of browsed through each apartment
real quickly, mainly looking at the hallways. Uh, but I can't tell you what
was in each apartment.
Uhm, if I heard them talking and there was some voices or he was
talking to somebody, I would go over there and see who he had or what was
going on. But this close, I mean, right across from each other?
DET. HANSON: It's down a ways.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember that. I don't remember. I don't
remember the elevator either. But --
Q BY DET. COX: And you don't remember making any F.I.'s that night
on anybody inside that building, specifically, that night on the 11th?
A If there was, Officer Durden would have written it.
Q Officer Durden claims he didn't -- he writes F.I.'s, but doesn't
turn them in.
A I don't know. I'm just saying that, uhm, he usually fills out
the F.I.'s.
MR. MCKESSON: You guys interviewed Officer Durden on this?
DET. COX: On this specific shooting, no.
DET. HANSON: On prior things we've talked to Officer Durden and have
a feel on the way he -- he conducted things. And that's why he was asking
that.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, but most of the time Durden would, you know, do the
F.I.'s and stuff like that.
Q BY DET. COX: Javier Ovando, you remember what he looks like
because you've seen him on the news?
A Mmnh-mmnh. I've seen him in court as well.
Q And you saw him in court.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Uhm, and you remember him once you saw him, you recall back to
that night? You remember him being there on the night of the shooting?
A Right.
Q Okay. Do you remember stopping and holding him in Room 410 that
night?
A No. On the 12th?
Q On the 12th. I'm sorry. On the night of the 12th after you told
Mousey to go downstairs and you were going to let Javier go in a little bit.
MR. MCKESSON: The only problem I'm having with the question, officer,
is the question is suggesting the answer. Because -- because I think my
client has said several times he doesn't remember Mousey being there.
DET. COX: Correct.
MR. MCKESSON: He doesn't remember this incident happened.
DET. COX: Right.
MR. MCKESSON: And the way you're asking the question, do you remember
after you did this, you did that, you did this? And I mean, I don't know how
he can answer that if he doesn't agree with it.
DET. COX: Well, what I -- but the thing is once we start talking to
him, he starts to remember a little -- he starts remembering some things.
So, like we told him about the car a while ago, and that's -- and
that kicked -- and that kicked in. That's all I'm trying to do. This stuff,
from what I've -- from what me and my partner have uncovered, is the way that
it happened. And --
MR. MCKESSON: I'm sorry. You said -- okay. Now, I really disagree.
You're saying the way that it happened is that he kicked out Mouse and then
Ovando was there?
DET. COX: Yes.
MR. MCKESSON: And if he doesn't agree with that?
DET. COX: And that's -- uh, that's fine. He doesn't -- I don't have
a videotape of what happened that night. I only have witnesses that I've
talked to.
MR. MCKESSON: Yeah.
Q BY DET. COX: That's it. So, I mean, if you can't recall, or
you're saying that's not the way it happened, I can't do anything about that.

A Right.
Q I mean, but I'm just giving you the opportunity. I'm not trying
to trick you. I'm telling you --
DET. HANSON: We have had a different version of this, basically.
THE WITNESS: Well, I've read some of the versions in the newspapers
already.
MR. ROSENTHAL: And it seems clear that all the detectives are doing
is saying that, uhm, according to other witnesses, this is what happened, and
trying to determine whether Mr. Perez remembers if it happened that way or
another way.
MR. MCKESSON: The only problem I have is, is the way the detective
characterizes the way it happened.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, but it's not court. So, yes, it's a leading --
potentially leading question. But --
MR. MCKESSON: No, I know we're not in court. But I'm trying to make
sure he's clear on that -- he understands what he's being questioned what do
your remember happened. And he's telling us what happened.
DET. COX: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: I think it's pretty clear he understands.
DET. HANSON: We want to make sure he knows that we have a different
version. Okay.
THE WITNESS: Like I said, I've read the versions in the newspapers.

DET. HANSON: All I want is to make sure that he knows we have a
different version from other witnesses. We weren't there. And to see if it
changes the way -- it changes his story, or maybe it refreshes his memory on
what happened. Because we, definitely, have two different stories.
MR. ROSENTHAL: All right. So, why don't we go on?
DET. HANSON: We're not trying to trick anybody. We want to make sure
that -- because when you tell us your story, that's going to be your story.
And we have another story.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
DET. COX: We want to make sure. Okay.
THE WITNESS: All right.
Q BY DET. COX: All right. Obviously, we have two stories -- yours
and the other witness's -- victim.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q The other victim's -- the victim claims he was in 410. And was
there for a period of time. When you went into the apartment, and you hand-
-- or you searched both Mousey and Ovando -- Javier.
DET. HANSON: We're telling our version.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
Q BY DET. COX: I'm telling my version.
A Okay.
Q I'm not telling you -- I'm --
A Okay.
Q -- telling you what the victim/witness said.
A Okay.
Q Okay. And if any of this clicks in, just let me know. Or part
of it clicks in, let me know. Uhm, Mousey's released. Mousey leaves the
building. Javier is still in the room with you and Officer Durden.
A In 410?
Q In 410.
A Okay.
Q He's in handcuffs, taken out of Room 410. Taken down to Room
407, led by you, and then, Javier, and then Officer Durden.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q You enter into Room 407 where you search the room quickly with
your flashlight because it's dark.
DET. HANSON: Let me stop for a minute. At that point, this kind of,
uh, -- this story he's telling you, kind of indicates now that you might have
not have been in 407, prior to this.
THE WITNESS: No, we were definitely in 407.
DET. HANSON: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Uh, and -- well, go ahead.
Q BY DET. COX: Nothing's -- nothing's clicking in right now?
Okay.
A Uhn-uhn. I'm sorry. No.
Q And once you clear the -- once you clear the apartment, Officer
Durden takes the handcuffs off of Mr. Ovando, who is now standing. And I'm
going to show you this. This is the diagram of the apartment of 407.
A Okay.
Q I think you saw it last week. I've taken out, uh, where I think
in the original drawing last week it showed where you were standing, where
Officer Durden was standing. There was an overturned chair. And where
Ovando was standing.
A Right.
Q Okay. I'm going to show that to you. And let you just
familiarize yourself with it.
A Okay. This is the entrance?
Q That's the entrance into the hallway.
A Okay.
Q Okay. Now, if on that, uh, -- on that diagram, where your little
finger is, on your left-hand, uhm, that's 410, is right down in that area,
except opposite -- exactly.
A Uh-huh.
Q Where you're pointing at the bottom of the page.
MR. ROSENTHAL: We'll mark this as No. 2.
Q BY DET. COX: Okay. Uhm, you guys walk into that hallway. And
Mr. O- -- I'm sorry. You walk into the hallway of Apartment 407.
A Okay. Here?
Q Yes.
A Okay.
Q You walk in through that front door of 407. After you've cleared
it, both rooms, both the kitchen area and the -- and the living room area,
Mr. Ovando is standing -- I'll put an "O" where Mr. Ovando was standing.
Mr. Ovando is standing approximately in this location here. I'm
putting an "O" right next to the wall of the entryway.
Is that where you remember the shooting occurring, where Mr.
Ovando --
A Yes.
Q Okay.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And where you were standing when you -- when you got involved in
the shooting was where? You can just go ahead and put your initial there.

A My initial?
Q Yeah. "P".
A "P"?
Q Yes. And where Durden was standing, approximately. A
Well, there was a chair right here.
Q Go ahead and mark -- put something there. Put a box or
something.
A At the chair?
Q Yeah.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Just a "C", or a rectangle.
(Witness complied.)
DET. COX: He drew a chair.
THE WITNESS: Well --
MR. ROSENTHAL: That's fine.
THE WITNESS: And Durden -- put a "D" for Durden?
Q BY DET. COX: Yes. So, he was standing on the other side of the
chair, not using the chair as cover?
A That's right.
Mr. Ovando says that he was standing there. And you and Officer
Durden were standing closer together. Not where you have it indicated there.

A Okay.
Q And you were whispering to each other.
A Okay.
Q And shining your lights on his face -- both you and Officer
Durden.
A Okay.
Q Do you remember that?
A No.
Q Okay. Then, at that point --
A At one point, -- I mean, at some point, when the shooting
occurred, yeah, I had my light on him, yes.
Q Okay. It was dark in that room?
A Yeah. Uh, yeah, the room was dark. I mean, there was some light
coming out from the street, 'cause it's a -- there's an apartment facing Lake
side. So, there's some light.
Q The front door was closed on that?
A I really didn't pay attention whether it was open or closed. I
don't remember exactly.
Q Do you remember if there was -- do you remember if there was
light in the hallway?
A For some reason, I remember some light being in the hallways to
some of the floors. I can't tell you if all the floors had, uh, lights. I
mean, some of the light bulbs were busted or something. Or I believe there
was power to the hallways. In other words, some of them were functioning.

Q Okay. This is what we heard also, that there was some power
still -- actually, there was power still to the building. And there was
quite a few lights on throughout the whole building, maybe sporadically. I
don't -- I don't know. I wasn't there.
A Okay.
Q At some point in time, you and Officer Durden drew your guns out
and then shot Mr. Ovando?
A Right.
Q As he's just standing there. He hasn't done anything. He's just
standing there next to the wall.
A Okay.
Q As Mr. Ovando starts to fall, you come over to him and grab him
by his shirt and hold him up, without letting him fall. And then, you put
the gun to his head. And then, he tells you, "Don't shoot me. I don't want
to die."
And then, you shoot him in the head. And then, you let go of him
and he falls.
A No.
Q No? All right. So, uhm, I know you haven't had the chance to
talk to Javier, which me and my partner have. And I can tell you, by us
talking to him, he is not a hardcore gang member.
I mean, he's actually very humble for being in prison for three
years. Uh, he's very believable. Uh, he's not saying anything more than
really what he thought happened that night. A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q In fact, he said he was marched down the hallway handcuffed until
he got in 407, where he was then taken into 407. Uh, he was actually asleep
in 410 when you knocked on the door with Mousey. He was asleep in there.
Because they were sleeping. They had smoked some cocaine. And you guys were
clearing the building.
Uh, and then you guys -- Mousey says he waited 25 minutes for,
uh, Javier to come downstairs. He had actually talked to Monique, his
girlfriend, who had shown up. And she had asked where Javier was.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And Mousey told her, "Well, the police have him upstairs. But
they're letting us go one-by-one." And they waited about five or ten minutes
downstairs. And then, they heard the gunshots.
So, Mousey says, uh, that you had him for a period, he thinks,
of 25 minutes before they hear the gunshots. And that's after you kick him
out. And there was additional witnesses across the street who were outside
when the shooting occurred. Now, I'm not going to sit here and -- and
tell you that, uh, there were other people that watched this thing go down.
Because you told us that you wanted to be -- come forward and tell us
everything.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And, uh, so, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that we have
witnesses that saw something, uh, different than what you're telling, other
than we have a victim who was there, at the time, and a witness who was also
-- well, actually, two other witnesses who were there, who tell us a very
similar story about you coming to that apartment, and door-knocking, and
being very nice the first day, on the 11th. Very nice officers, writing
F.I.'s., refusing to speak Spanish to them.
A Refusing to speak Spanish to them? I'm a fluent Spanish-speaker.
So, I don't know.
Q I -- I know. Well, all of them said the same thing, that the,
uh, -- Officer Perez didn't speak Spanish. And they don't -- they don't
think that you do speak Spanish. They think that you're a Black officer who
doesn't, uh, speak Spanish.
So, I mean, I'm just telling you what they say.
A Right.
Q Okay. Uh, but these people haven't talked to each other for
three years. None of them. Because they haven't seen each other. And it's
just amazing that their story is fairly consistent. Yours is kind of way
off.
A No, my --
Q And you admit to putting the gun there, which is the serious part
-- planting the gun.
A Right.
Q But -- and I want to get into the gun part.
A Yeah, I've, uh -- I've explained it exactly as -- I mean that I
grabbed his collar and put a gun to his head and -- and I read this already
in the paper, by the way. I -- I don't know if you know it's in the paper.

Q No.
A Yeah. It was -- all of this was already in the paper.
Q Okay.
A And I've read it already.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A I mean, it's --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Mr. -- just for the record, Mr. Ovando's statement was
put in the Declaration for Writ of Habeas Corpus, which became a public
document.
DET. COX: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: So, there were some quotations in the papers about it.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I've read them.
Q BY DET. COX: And none of what Javier says and -- has any truth
to it, other than the fact of the gun? And he said he didn't have a gun?
A Well, yes.
Q He did not have a gun?
A He did not have a gun.
Q Okay. But the part about him being in Apartment 410, and Mousey
saying the same thing -- we were down the hall and officers came there on the
12th, told me to leave. And Javier's saying the same thing.
You know, I mean, like I said, you have to understand Javier and
Mousey haven't talked to each other since the night of the shooting. They
never talked to each other again. And they still haven't talked to each
other to this day.
A Well, I mean, I don't know whether they talked to each other or
not. But I know this is a -- in fact, we even received death threats. I
mean, I don't know if it was even documented. But they talked about, uh,
that they were going to hit me and Durden regarding this shooting. I don't
know if you guys heard that.
Q No, I did not.
A We had done so many walk-throughs in here. Everybody was there.
I mean, everybody knew what was going on here, as far as, you know, where
everything took place, and stuff like that. Because we had done several
walk-throughs. Uhm, we had even got rumors -- I mean, I had known -- I think
I told the D.A. that his girlfriend went up there and talked to him. And
that he was okay. And that she had talked to some of the homeboys.
He -- she started seeing some other guy, and got pregnant by
another guy. This is just stuff that --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Hold on a second.
THE WITNESS: -- they told me.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Hold on a second. Slow down. Off the record for a
break at 11:46 a.m.
(Off the record at 11:46 a.m.)
(Back on the record at 1:07 p.m.)
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. We're back on the record. It is 1:07 p.m. And
Mr. Perez, you're still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q BY DET. COX: Okay. I think, Ray, when we left off, I'd given
you the scenario of what I was told by witness and victim. Uhm, and nothing
like that comes to mind about what -- that that's what happened?
A The only thing that you refreshed my memory about was that we had
left and come back, and gotten some people out of the building. But, no, the
other parts that you've told me about, no.
The only thing I can say on what you had told me that the person
said that the person didn't speak English.
Q Yes.
A Uh, the only thing I can think of, in my mind, that, you know,
made me think was that, uhm, I did not have -- in other words, I wasn't with
Durden the entire time. There was times that I was watching and he was
walking around.
So -- and believe me when I say, that if I stopped someone who
was a Spanish-speaker, I would speak Spanish, because I'm a Spanish-speaker.
You know, I'm not gonna just keep speaking English if they're not talking to
me. But what I'm saying -- well, the reason I'm saying this is because
Durden doesn't speak English -- and I wouldn't --
Q He doesn't speak Spanish.
A He doesn't speak Spanish. So, I -- I wasn't accounting -- or I
didn't account for every moment -- where he was, every moment. Like I
remembered that you said that he left, uh, to go, uhm, take some keys or do
something. That's something -- I didn't account for every moment where he
was.
Q Yeah, but that time that he left to take the keys is
-- you stayed in 407 during that time and didn't -- as far as you can
remember, you stayed in 407?
A Yes.
Q You didn't leave, and you didn't confront anybody or run into
anybody --
A No.
Q -- when he was passing the keys?
A No, I didn't.
Q Let's go to the part about the gun. After the shooting, and I
may -- well, hold on one second. Tell me, again, your version of -- of the
shooting, how it happened, of what happened when you guys were inside
Apartment 407. Tell me what happened.
A Okay. Uhm, can I use that diagram again?
Q Sure.
MR. ROSENTHAL: And this is Diagram 2.
DET. COX: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Exhibit 2, yes.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: Uh, everything that's on here is correct. Everything
that I had drawn earlier. That it also reflects, uhm, what the shooting team
had the sketch -- the, uh, scale that I had prior on -- on a prior interview.
Uhm, where the "O" is is where Mr. Ovando -- where I saw him. The "D" is
where Mr. Durden -- or Officer Durden was. And the "P" is where my last
steps that I took, where I ended up.
Q Okay.
A The "P". Uh, like I said, I walked from where the window was
here.
Q In the kitchen?
A I'm sorry. Yes.
Q Okay.
A Where the window was in the kitchen area. Where it says,
"Window", uh, in this scale. I had walked from there to where the "P" is
positioned now. Uhm, from this position, I believe I had a flashlight in my
hand.
Q Why did you walk from the window to where the "P" is at?
A I heard Officer Durden talking.
Q Loud?
A Yeah, loud enough for me to hear through the earpiece and
everything else. And I also heard, like -- like I said before, and I've said
it several times, you know, the "F" word. And then there was some talking.
And the "F" word was in the middle of it. And it was like a loud voice.
Uh, the closest I -- I got to, uh, Mr. Ovando, before I fired a
round, was where this position -- where this "P" is.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And how far is that, about?
Q BY DET. COX: Could you say in the room here, as far as where
you're sitting?
A From here to about the wall. Is that 15, 20 feet?
Q Something -- probably around 15 feet or so.
A Something like that. About 15 feet.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: That's about somewhere between 15 to 20 feet?
A About that. Uh, from here. Uh, this is where I fired my rounds
from.
Q BY DET. COX: Okay.
A And where this chair was and where the -- the -- Mr. Durden --
the "D" is, that's where he was standing. Uh, like I said, when I walked
from window, uh, in the kitchen to where this "P" is, uh, I had already seen
Mr. -- I seen Mr. Ovando. I seen Mr. Durden -- or Officer Durden with his
gun out -- or taking his gun out, pointing it, uh, firing a round. And I,
then, fired a round.
I -- well, I fired three rounds off. You know, I know we keep
saying three, but was it three or four rounds? 'Cause there was some
confusion.
Q It was four rounds.
A Four rounds?
Q Four rounds fired total.
A Total. Okay. Well, I fired, then, three rounds from here. From
this position where this "P" is, I fired three rounds.
Q Okay. Uhm, when Mr. Ovando walked in, where -- where the "O" is,
what was he doing when you fired at him?
A Just standing there.
Q Looking towards, in your direction, or in Officer Durden's
direction?
A No. Officer Durden's direction.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Do you know whether he was armed or not --
Ovando -- at the time that you fired your shots?
A Like I told you before, I did not see a weapon on him. Q
BY DET HANSON: Could you see his hands?
A And to be very honest, I -- I'm assuming that I saw his hands.
I just don't remember. I don't -- I can't say that I looked right into his
hands, you know what I mean? Because -- because that would be lying. But
I remember being able to see him. And I know that he didn't have no weapon.
And I can see that he had no weapon.
Q And you -- when you're looking for somebody -- when you're
looking at something, --
A Yeah, you kind of give a quick like visual cursory search.
Q You look at hands to see what's up, --
A Right.
Q -- with most people.
A Right.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: So why did you shoot?
A Like I said before, I was feeding off of my partner. My partner
had fired a round. And I just went and I fired it myself.
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: You're saying you maybe thought your partner
might have seen something you didn't see?
A Well, like I -- like I told, I believe, it's on the first
interview, I fed off my partner. When he fired, I fired right after that.

Q Do you feel your partner was in a better position to see than you
were?
A He was only maybe five feet away from him. Uhm, I mean, they
were like, I would say, from here to there. Right to where you're at. From
where I'm sitting to Detective Hanson's sitting, which is maybe five feet.
Q BY MR. COX: Six feet or so.
A Six feet. I was another ten feet or so behind and to the right
of -- of Officer Durden.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: It actually sounds like what you're saying is
the reason you shot is not because necessarily you thought Officer Durden
could see something you didn't, but you just reacted?
A I reacted.
Q You shot without thinking.
A Yes.
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. HANSON: And I'm not -- I'm not questioning that. But,
have you been taught, though, that you're supposed to see the threat? Also,
you don't just fire because your partner fires. I know you're backing your
partner up, but you also as an individual, you know, to justify your
shooting, you also have to see some kind of threat also.
Is that something that you've --
A Well, certainly, you're trained to see the threat. But sometimes
you have to go on other instincts, too. I mean, if my partner's wrestling
with someone, and I don't see a gun, but he says, "Shoot him," I'm going to
shoot him. Not because I saw a gun, because I'm backing my partner, and I'm
-- I'm feeding off him. 'Cause I'm thinking maybe he sees something I don't.
So, I don't know if I answered your question.
Q That's okay. That's all right.
Q BY DET. COX: At no time you made physical contact with Mr.
Ovando?
A At no time did I -- to this day, at no time have I ever even
touched him, uh, physically, like even -- not even to handcuff him. Because
I didn't handcuff him.
Q Well, tell me what happened shortly -- right after the shooting.
What happens next?
A Which part?
Q Right after.
A Putting the gun down, or --
Q Well, right after you shoot Mr. --
A After the people started coming?
Q No. Right after you shoot Mr. Ovando, what happens next?
A Like I said, Officer Durden -- can I keep referring to this
diagram?
Q Sure.
A 'Cause it makes it easier for me.
Q Okay.
A Can I use your pen?
MR. ROSENTHAL: We're still looking at, uh, Exhibit 2.
THE WITNESS: Where the "O" is positioned is Mr. Ovando. After the
rounds are fired, I move over maybe -- I wrote on it. I'm sorry.
DET. COX: That's okay.
THE WITNESS: I walked over to maybe about here. Right where -- a
little bit to the --
Q BY DET. COX: Go ahead and put an "x" there where you're -- or
a "P". And then put, uh --
A Put another "P"?
Q Put a -- and just put, uh, 2. P2.
MR. MCKESSON: Three "P's"?
THE WITNESS: "P2" is okay? I come to about there. And I'm just, uh,
on the low ready. When I say "low ready" I mean my -- my weapon is
positioned down. And I'm covering the, uh -- the defendant, who is on the
ground. Officer Durden walks over this way. And I put an arrow going to the
left towards the exit. He walks out here, and runs around here. And is gone
for a little while.
Q BY DET. COX: Okay. When you say he runs around, do you see him
leave out the door?
A Mmnh-mmnh. The --
Q Out the front door?
A Yes.
Q You see him exit out the front door of Apartment 407. Do you
lose sight of him then for a period of time?
A Yes.
Q How long approximately?
A I'll say maybe no more than five minutes.
Q For a period of five minutes, uh, he was gone?
A No -- no more than five minutes.
Q Okay. What's the least amount of time? Because five minutes is
a long time to be guarding someone after a shooting.
A Okay. I'm gonna say probably somewhere in between three and five
minutes. Somewhere in there.
Q Do you know where he went?
A He went out the door. I don't know what he -- I was still here.
I was still in -- inside.
Q Did he say anything to you when he was leaving?
A No.
Q He just leaves, walks out the door?
A Yeah. I -- I think I might have said, "I got him." In other
words, I'm covering him. And he walks out here.
Q What was he going to do out there?
A I'm assuming that he was seeing if there was anybody else around,
or whatever.
Q But I mean three minutes, uh, that's the minimum. Three minutes
to go out and see if someone else is around, is -- I mean, it's a long time,
especially when you just shot somebody.
A I'm telling you exactly how long he was gone.
Q Okay. All right. I just want to make sure. I just want to make
sure.
A And I'm trying to -- I'm guesstimating at the time.
Q I understand that, too.
A Somewhere between three and five minutes. And -- and I believe
we even told the shooting team this, that he went out. And -- and he did.
This is true. He did go out and look around. I mean, that's --
Q Okay.
A If it wasn't -- in other words, if we had lied on the officer-
involved shooting team that he didn't go out there and all that, I would tell
you, no, he didn't go out there. But he did.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Did he ever -- from the hallway, did he ever
say, Ray, the hallway is clear. It doesn't look --
A No.
Q -- like anybody's coming.
A No. He never said that.
Q Nothing like that?
A No.
MR. MCKESSON: Take your time. Let them ask the question. Q
BY DET. COX: Okay. After you -- after he comes back -- while he's
gone, you're guarding Mr. Ovando the whole time on a low ready?
A Yes.
Q And Durden comes back?
A Yes.
Q What happens then?
A Uhm, we said a few words. And I -- I can't really say what it
was. Uh, I think it was something about notifying the C.R.A.S.H. units.
Q And how did you do that?
A How did he notify the C.R.A.S.H. units?
Q Yes.
A Well, I think we got on 1. He did it, so I don't know if we got
on 181 Boy or Duplex.
Q Let me ask you this. Was there a certain way, when C.R.A.S.H.
got involved in something, that no one else would know what was going on?
You guys had some kind of code set up through a frequency?
A Yes.
Q What was that?
A Uh, it was -- we would say, uhm, whatever the unit designation.
And, uh, we'd say, "Requesting C.R.A.S.H. 10, C.R.A.S.H. 20, and C.R.A.S.H.
30, and C.R.A.S.H. 40."
Q What did that indicate?
A That there's an officer-involved shooting, and get all every
unit to respond to the location. Secure it, uh, before anybody else gets
there. And if there's already somebody there, let's say a black-and-white
for some reason comes by, or some former C.R.A.S.H. officer, that knows our
code came by, get him out of there. Put the C.R.A.S.H. unit there, uh, while
we discuss the -- everything.
Q Uhm, is that what he did? And that's on 181 Boy Simplex?
A Like I said, he did all the talking.
Q Normally, is that what you would do?
A That's what I was going to say.
Q Oh, I'm sorry.
A What we normally would do is, obviously, either get on 181 or
base, uhm, depending on if -- who's monitoring. Because what usually happens
-- let me. I got to give a little bit of information. What usually happens
is in the -- in the unit, a two-man unit, one officer will always monitor
base frequency. The other unit will monitor 181 Boy.
Q Okay.
A So, one officer is monitoring one. The other one's --and you got
to communicate if something's up. Uh, so, I just don't know whether he, uh,
broadcast it on 181 Boy or he broadcast it on, uh, Duplex. Uh, I don't know.

Q Okay. So, when he comes back, after a few minutes, what happens
next?
A When he comes back and he enters back in the building, he says
a few words.
Q The building, or the apartment?
A I'm sorry. The apartment.
Q Okay.
A He, uh -- he enters here. Now --
Q To the end of the hallway?
A Right by where Mr. Ovando's standing.
Q Okay.
A Now, I don't know if he brought it in with him, or what he did --
how he got it -- but he had a red rag. It was like a red T-shirt or a red
shirt, or something. And it was dirty.
Q Bright red? Dull red?
A Maybe about, uh -- what would this be? Scarlet maybe? (Book
held up.)
Q Yes.
A Like a scarlet, uh, red. Something like that.
Q Okay.
A Uh, it was dirty.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, and he produces the weapon. I know what the weapon is.
Because I've seen it. And I've seen him scratching off the serial number.

Q And I'll get to that in a second also. So, he comes walking in.
Is he carrying the --
A That's what I was saying. I don't remember -- I don't remember
seeing him walking in with it. Uh, but he had it. When he -- in other
words, when he walks back in, I see him. But I'm looking down at the
defendant. I'm wondering whether to handcuff him or what. We didn't
handcuff him. I never handcuffed him.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, and he says some words to me. And he says, "I got this
thing." Or something. I don't remember the exact words. It would be
impossible for me to remember the exact words.
Q Okay.
A But what I do see is the red rag. And, you know, -- and the red
rag has the, uh, -- the rifle in it. Uhm, or it isn't -- we call it rifle,
but it's not a rifle. It's a Tech. .22. It's smaller than a rifle. It's
compact.
He stands, uh, right in front of, uh, Mr. Ovando. Right in front
of him. Mr. Ovando's laying on the ground. And he -- from about, uh, chest
level drops it, uh, right where Mr. Ovando would have -- if he had a weapon
-- would have dropped it. And dropped it and let it fall to the ground.
Q What did you say, at that point?
A I didn't say anything.
Q Because this is a pre-set plan?
A No. I just didn't say anything. I mean, it was --
MR. MCKESSON: Off the record, I'll say it again. Detective wasn't
here for the last round of questions. One of the things -- he can restate
it again -- that Mr. Perez -- Officer Perez has stated, is that when
something like this happens, there is very little talk. Something happens
and nobody talks about it. If you want to describe it to him, you can.
Q BY DET. COX: When you say that something happens like --
something like this, you mean, like a shooting?
A When something like this happens, right.
Q What do you mean?
A I had experienced something like this prior to this.
Q Okay.
A And I know what happened in that situation.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Are you talking about the Shatto Place
incident?
A Right.
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. COX: Okay.
A So, and -- I mean, everybody that was involved in that one, we
know what happened.
Q Okay.
A But when it was done, that was it. You didn't say, uhm, okay,
we're going to do this because it's the right thing to do. It was done,
obviously, because the guy had no gun. I mean, it was a real obvious thing.

Q When he comes walking in, and he had this red rag, did you see
the gun at either end of the rag sticking out?
A You know, I saw the gun when he took the thing off. Could I see
part of it? I don't remember.
Q Okay. That's fine. Where did he get this gun from? Not -- I
mean, that night right then. Where did that gun come from?
A Well, at one point, it was in our vehicle.
Q Right.
A Right.
Q You guys got out of the car together. You were -- now, how did
you get the gun? You had to know about the gun prior to coming into the
apartment.
A Did I know about the gun? Or did I know that the gun was in the
building? I knew about the gun, yes.
Q I knew -- you knew about the gun. I'm sorry.
A Yes.
Q Okay. I knew you knew about the gun prior, but coming into the
building, you knew that he had to have the gun, because you guys were in the
building together. And he didn't go to the car to get the gun, because the
car wasn't there.
A Right.
Q Go ahead.
A The only thing I can remember is what I had told you before was
that Durden would always carry this little -- like a backpack with, uh, duct
tape, uh, everything that was necessary, in his war bag. He'd carry -- and
that's the only thing that I can think of that he carried up.
Q The backpack or war bag?
A No, no. Not the war bag He kept the backpack in the war bag.

Q Okay.
A You follow? He kept a big war bag. The ones we're issued -- the
big ones. But inside the smaller one, he had a -- and I'm thinking he might
have brought it up, simply because we were using binoculars, uhm, and things
like that.
And so that's where he kept all that little stuff that we used,
uh, inside that -- that bag.
So, but I don't remember if the weapon was in the backpack or
not. That I don't even -- I don't see that.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Would it have fit in the backpack? It's a
pretty big weapon, isn't it?
A Well, I don't know the exact diameters. But I remember it being
sort of like a -- like an Uzi, wasn't it? Like a -- like a -- I don't know
the length. I really don't.
DET. HANSON: It's not that long.
THE WITNESS: It's not that long, right? How long is it? I don't know.
Eighteen inches maybe?
DET. HANSON: Maybe a little bit longer than that.
Q BY DET. COX: Ray, where would he go to get that gun, is what I'm
asking? Where if that gun wasn't in the room? And you had to be with him
earlier when you guys were searching the floors. You had to know about that
gun in the bag.
A Well, I absolutely knew about the gun. Where the gun was
exactly, I don't know. If the gun was in the backpack --
Q Which it had to be, don't -- wouldn't you think?
A I'm assuming, yes. I'm assuming. But I'm -- you want me to say
that absolutely positively the gun was in the backpack. I can't say that
absolutely positively.
Q But -- okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Durden, at the time that he left, after the
shooting, would not have known where your car was; right? It was moved by
another officer.
A I don't know who moved it. I know somebody came by. I think it
was Rios and Montoya.
Q BY DET. HANSON: And we had asked you that already, and you said
that was a true statement.
A Yes.
Q That was not part of something that was made up.
A No.
Q The part about throwing the keys out the window, moving your car,
--
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- is -- that was not made up? Or that was?
A No, that was not made up. But let me say this. That's what
Durden told me. I wasn't there. I was still in the building, remember. I'm
still in 407. From what I remember now, when you said that, I remember him
-- somebody saying -- he left. He said he's going to get a hold of, uh, a
unit to come and move our car and whatever else.
He left. He's gone for awhile. And when he gets back, whenever
that is, he's told me the car is moved. But I wasn't there to see any keys
thrown or anything like that. That's something I ass- -- or not assumed.
Q Okay.
A But --
Q BY DET. HANSON: Prior to you parking the car there on the north
side of the building, jumping fences, going to the south side, and entering,
did Durden have his war bag with him? When you did an O.P., do you remember
if he carried this war bag with him, at that time?
A He -- he had the war bag on a couple of occasions. I don't
remember on each occasion. Because I know the fact that he -- I know for a
fact he did have the war bag because, like I said, the binoculars were in
there. Uh, several other things were in there. And we were using
binoculars.
Q And those are things you would take to an O.P.?
A Right.
Q Correct?
A Right.
Q But you can't recall if he had it?
A It might have even been right in the room. I just don't -- I
don't recall. But he -- I know we brought it in several -- well, he was
carrying it. I wasn't carrying it. He had it. He had the war bag.
Uh, if I had to put a percentage on it, whether he brought it in
that day -- I know we -- we brought it in. I don't remember if we brought
it in the first time, the second time. On the first day, I know we brought
it in. We had to because we were using binoculars.
Q But he wouldn't have had to go out in the hallway to get the gun
then.
A No.
Q The gun would have been in the room.
A That's true.
Q So, -- so, and you're saying no, that he went out in the hallway
and then came back with the gun?
A No. I said he definitely went out in the hallway.
Q Okay.
A He was gone three to five minutes, and it may even been shorter.
But it was between three and five minutes to me while I'm sitting there
looking at the person who got shot.
When he comes back in, like I said, I didn't real -- realize, or
didn't recognize whether he was holding it already or not. But by the time
I stopped looking at the defendant, and I'm looking at him, talking to him
again, I see that he's carrying -- he's holding the red rag. When he --
Q I mean, did you see Durden breathing hard or anything like that,
like he'd been running?
A No.
Q So, he looked normal?
A Calm.
Q And he didn't --
A After he -- I'm sorry?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: When he left the room, he didn't take his
backpack or --
A No.
Q -- war bag with him?
A No.
Q When you said you were talking into -- or the question was the
war bag. Are you saying the war bag was potentially in the room, or the
backpack was potentially in the room, or both?
A No, no. The backpack.
Q Right.
A Not the war bag. The backpack.
Q All right.
A Uh, I was getting ready to say something. What did you say right
before that?
Q Well, we can have the court reporter read back.
A I was trying to answer something he said.
(Last portion was read back.)
THE WITNESS: A little further back. I'm sorry.
(Portion further back was read back.)
THE WITNESS: Disregard. I know what it was. You had said whether he
came back, uh, and was excited or something, or --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Breathing hard.
THE WITNESS: -- breathing hard. No, he wasn't. As a matter of fact,
I was getting ready to say that right after, uhm, he had placed the gun,
that's when he started talking on the radio again. And he wanted to do --
and one thing I do remember about all of it, is that he --
(Off the record to change paper.)
(Back on the record.)
THE WITNESS: Right. I had said that when he had gotten back, uhm, he
was not breathing hard. And he was not out of breath or whatever. And right
after that is when he got on the radio. If I remember correctly, I never got
on the radio at all. Uh, not to request an R.A., not to do a C.R.A.S.H. 10,
or 20, or 30, to call the units in, or anything like that.
Q BY DET. COX: So, it's a possibility that the gun was already in
Room 407?
A Yes.
Q Yes, it's a possibility, but you don't know a hundred percent one
way or the other?
A That's correct. Because the backpack that I'm talking about was
brought up. And I can assume that it was in there, because this is at the
same time when I told you it was two, three days before we were in the car.
And he was scraping the serial number off. Now, I'm assuming that he
probably put it back in the backpack. So, --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: What -- what I don't understand is, if it was
in the war bag, in the room, he leaves the room, right after the shooting,
he's, obviously, not carrying the rifle --
A Right.
Q -- for lack of a better term. He comes back in with the rag and
the gun. It doesn't sound like it's possible that that gun came from a bag
inside the room.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q It had to come from inside.
A Uhn-uhn. You did the same thing that he did.
Q Okay.
A Saying that I saw him coming in the with the rag. What I'm
saying is, once he got back --
Q Okay.
A -- and he says some words to me. And I'm -- I was looking at the
defendant. And he comes back and said some words to me.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A Then, I recognize that he has, uh, this rag with the gun in it.
Did he come in the room, walk into the bathroom and got it out of the
bathroom? 'Cause, I mean, -- can I borrow your pen again? There was a bath-
-- isn't there a bathroom right by the front door?
DET. COX: I believe so.
THE WITNESS: I mean, he walked in this bathroom, too, coming and
going. So, I don't recall if maybe the rag -- or the -- the backpack was in
this bathroom, or -- or what. You see what I'm saying?
Q BY DET. COX: Did he normally carry the backpack when you guys
would go out and do routine police work?
A Well, yeah, he carries -- we carry a war bag. And inside --
Q A war bag I understand.
A -- inside that war bag is his backpack.
Q Okay.
A Inside that backpack is like, you know, everything you might
need. Just everything in police work you might need.
Q Okay. Okay. Like you're saying, binoculars, uh, maybe things
to wash your hands with?
A A little bit of everything.
Q A little bit of everything?
A Yes.
Q Uhm, but that night -- on the night of October 12th, you
specifically recall him having that backpack with him when you guys are going
from floor-to-floor?
A You know why I do remember most of that? Because I remember us
going over the fence. And his backpack got caught up in the -- in the fence.

Q Okay.
A That just entered my mind. I remember he had it on him. And as
we were going over the fence, it got snagged or something on the, uh -- on
the fence. I remember that vaguely. But I do remember that. Now, was it
exactly on the 12th? Or was it the day before when we went over it a couple
of times? I can't be positive.
Q Did you know he had the gun in that backpack?
A I probably could have assumed it. Because if he had it, because
I know, what, three days prior, it was in the car. And that's where it was.
So, I'm sure -- I probably assumed that it was in there.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And there is no way he would have kept the
backpack in the bathroom, is there? I mean, the location of the bathroom is
such that that would seem to be a tactical error being that someone could
walk into the apartment, go in the bathroom, without either one of you even
seeing, and taking the backpack.
A Oh, no. No, you're not going to come in this door without -- I'm
here. And he's, you know, just roaming around here. There's -- there's no
way somebody is going to open this door and -- and him not know about it.
Q But why -- it seems to me that if he's got the backpack, he's
gonna leave it somewhere in the living room, where he is, and not put it in
the bathroom, where he's not. That doesn't make much sense to me.
A And I didn't say absolutely, positively -- and you -- you -- and
I know you're trying to like lock me down to -- to something. But I'm not
saying positively that it was in the bathroom. What I'm saying is when he
left, he went into the bathroom, walked out, came back, and went by the
bathroom, and then came over.
Q All right. Is there any chance that the backpack was somewhere
in the living room, and that he -- because we know right after the shooting,
he goes out of the apartment, without the gun.
A Right.
Q Without the rifle. He comes back in. Is there any possibility
he could have gone through the hallway into the living room to his bag,
gotten the gun, and then gone back to Mr. Ovando and dropped it? Is that
possible?
A Well, you got to remember, the living room's right there. We're
-- we're in the living room.
Q Okay.
A So, I mean, and that bag was definitely not in this hallway area.

MR. MCKESSON: Can I ask a question? Uhm, is this building still
abandoned?
DET. COX: No.
MR. MCKESSON: People are living in this unit?
DET. HANSON: Yes. The place is -- you wouldn't recognize the place.

THE WITNESS: All fixed up or something?
DET. HANSON: All fixed up.
MR. MCKESSON: Would it be possible for you guys to take him and ask
him to walk through it? 'Cause it seems to me that there's -- there's a bit
of confusion.
DET. COX: Well, I mean, I understand perfectly what he's saying. I
mean, I don't have a problem with what he's saying. I know exactly. When
he indicates the bathroom, the living room, I mean, I -- I can understand.

DET. HANSON: He doesn't know where the gun came from.
DET. COX: Yeah, I mean, uh, the bottom line is, he's saying the gun,
the backpack, could have been in the bathroom. It could have been in the
living room. He doesn't know where the gun came from. That's the bottom
line here. He doesn't know where it came from.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Is that correct?
A Well, right.
DET. HANSON: Yeah. I mean --
THE WITNESS: I know where it came from --
Q BY DET. HANSON: Right. But on that night, --
A Right.
Q -- do you know if it came out of the -- probably came out of the
backpack, but who knows where the backpack was at.
A Right.
Q Correct?
A Right.
Q It makes sense that it would be in the living room like -- like
the D.A. said. 'Cause that would make sense to me. You're gonna keep it
near you.
A Sure.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Given the amount of time that passed between
the time of the shooting and the time Durden left the room, to the time he
came back -- so the period of time he was outside of your view there, is it
possible that he could have gone down to the first floor, over the fence --

A No way.
Q -- over to a car and back?
A No way.
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Could --
A No.
Q Could, uhm, -- when he threw the keys to Rios and Montoya, could
he have told them, grab my -- my backpack and throw it up to me? Throw it
up to me before you move the car. And then, taken the backpack and put it
into another room?
A You're asking me to speculate. Of course, any of that's
possible. Of course, he could have ran down.
Q 'Cause you're not sure if he had it on the -- on his back jumping
over the fence? You remember something like that?
A I remember on one instance laughing at him because his -- uh, I
remember laughing at him at one instance where his backpack got snagged on
the fence itself.
Uhm, your question before that was? Gee.
Q It was regarding maybe Rios and Montoya throwing the bag up to
him.
A Exactly.
Q And then you wouldn't have seen it. He might -- he could have
put it in the room next door.
A Right. Because when he left, uh, he hadn't called for anybody
yet. He was going to leave. Get out either to the back of the building or
somewhere in the building, and call for a unit to come by. Uh, and he said
he was going to give him the keys to move the car. Or they were going to
move the car. So, what he did during that time that he was gone for however
long he was gone, I don't know.
Q But you knew he did have the gun?
A Did I know he had a gun?
Q He had the -- he had a gun --
A Sure.
Q He had this gun, though?
A Of course.
Q Okay.
A Yes.
Q Did you have a war bag yourself?
A I had a war bag. But it was -- it's a war bag that was issued
to me in '89, in the academy. It was pretty rotten. But I did have one,
yes.
Q And do you remember if you had your war bag with you?
A No. I had -- I wasn't carrying anything. I had no war bag with
me. No, -- I -- I carried nothing on me, on any of the occasions coming or
going, on, uh, the -- both nights.
Q Do you know if you had a gun in your war bag?
A I did not have a gun in my war bag, no.
Q BY DET COX: After the shooting, and after Durden comes in, drops
the gun, he's called on the radio. What happens next?
A Uhm, after -- and this is a little fuzzy to me, because I'm still
standing by -- by Mr. Ovando here. He comes out. When he goes to talk on
the radio, and everything else, he comes back out to the hallway.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, I'm still standing here. Uh, from the time that the
shooting occurred, I'm still standing right here where the "P2" is. He comes
back out to the hallway. Uhm, I believe he called for the unit first.
Shortly after he calls for the units, he calls for the, uh -- the
R.A. -- an R.A. Uhm, what do you want to know next? Who showed up, or --
Q Yeah. Who was the first unit to show up?
A The first unit to show up was, uh, Officer Montoya and Officer
Rios.
Q How soon after the shooting occurred, approximately? I know it's
-- you have hard time with it, but approximately.
A Well, yeah, I'm going to have a real hard time with it.
Q Okay.
A I'm really going to be guessing.
Q Would it be under ten minutes?
A Oh, definitely under ten minutes.
Q Okay. Would it be under five minutes?
A Uhm, --
Q Somewhere in that range?
A Somewhere in that range between maybe, you know, five and ten
minutes. Somewhere around there.
Q So, Rios and Montoya, which we've already discussed, they were
in a chase car. And you don't know where they came from, but they were the
first unit there?
A Yes.
Q Even though you didn't request them? You -- you put, uh,
C.R.A.S.H. 10, 20, 30, 40, and they responded, 'cause they're the closest?
A No, because they're a C.R.A.S.H. unit.
Q Well, that's what I mean, out of the C.R.A.S.H. units.
A Every C.R.A.S.H. unit is going to respond --
Q Right.
A -- no matter what they're doing.
Q But they're the closest, obviously, probably because they're the
first ones there. And they --
A They're the closest probably 'cause they work 18th Street gang
and they were probably nearby, yes.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And they got there first?
A They were the first ones there. Yes. Why they got there first,
I don't know. They were the closest ones, I'm assuming.
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. COX: They come upstairs. And you said Officer Rios
handcuffed, uh, Mr. Ovando?
A Yes.
Q From the front or the back?
A I believe he handcuffed him in the back.
Q In the back?
A Yeah, his hands into his back. Yes.
Q Okay. Uhm, is that the reason -- let me ask you this. Is that
because, normally, that's what you would do? Is there any reason he would
be handcuffed in the front?
A I think 'cause he was facing face down.
Q Okay. He was handcuffed in the front from the photographs that
we have.
A Was it?
Q Yes.
A I don't even remember then.
Q Okay. Who shows up next after Rios and Montoya? Sergeant show
up?
A I think so. I think. I think maybe a sergeant in another unit
show up, simultaneously, actually.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Let me just ask a question. Before the
handcuffing, I assume that because he was handcuffed, at that point, you
believed he was alive?
A Yeah, he was alive. You could hear him -- uh, you could hear him
making noises. And you could hear him making noises and --
Q Because if you thought he was dead, there would be no need to
handcuff him.
A Right. I mean, but he -- well, not necessarily. Because, I
mean, I think we're trained, if I remember correctly, that you shoot a
suspect, no matter what -- whether alive or dead, you're still going to
handcuff him.
Q Okay.
DET. COX: That's correct.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
DET. COX: On the radio, I think it came up that he's not breathing.
The suspect.
THE WITNESS: No, he was breathing.
Q BY DET. COX: Mr. Ovando. I know. I'm just saying on the radio.
A Oh.
Q And I know that you didn't do the radio. Uh, I assume that maybe
you guys thought he had been killed. That's why --
A Well, I'm looking at him. I know he's breathing.
Q Okay.
A So, I -- I don't know what Durden said over the radio, what kind
of information he put out.
Q Okay.
A But, uh, I know he was still breathing. I could hear him, you
know, kind of gagging or whatever, making noises.
Q At what point did you guys know that this was not a good
shooting?
MR. MCKESSON: At what point did he know it was not a good shooting?
Q BY DET. COX: Yes. I'm sorry. Did you know?
A Well, I knew it was not a good shooting right after the shoots
were fired and I'm looking at him and I know there's no gun there.
Q Okay. So, then, when Officer Durden throws the gun down, now you
know for sure that it's not a good shooting?
A Now I know it's a cover-up to a shooting.
Q Okay. Uh, Sgt. Ortiz arrives along with the Officers Rios and
Montoya, but not with them, but he comes after them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is something discussed, at that point, about what had happened?
A Yes.
Q Between?
A Myself, Officer Durden, Officer Montoya, I believe, Officer --
or Sgt. Ortiz.
Q What was discussed?
A I'm -- if you give me just a second.
Q Oh, I'm sorry.
A I'm trying to think if there was anybody else that was --
Q Could there have been another sergeant?
A Give me a name and I'll tell you if he was there or not.
Q Is there a Sgt. Peters that, uh --
DET. HANSON: I know that Ortiz was not driven -- did not drive there
himself.
THE WITNESS: Maybe it was Sgt. Peters.
DET. HANSON: He was driven by another sergeant.
THE WITNESS: I think Sgt. Peters might have been there. Uh, vaguely
-- I vaguely remember him there.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And you said Montoya. Would his partner have
been with him?
A In the meeting?
Q Right.
A No.
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. COX: Tell me about the meeting. Or let me -- the
meeting is yourself, Durden, Montoya, uh, Ortiz, and Peters? Or you're not
for sure?
A I'm not for sure. You know, I remember that they would drive
around together.
Q Okay.
A But I just can't picture him. I really just cannot picture him.

Q What's -- tell me what the meeting is about.
A Uh, it's to, basically, debrief the sergeant as to what occurred,
uh, and to formulate a plan as to, uh, well, how everything happened.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, you want me to get into specifics?
Q What -- in other words, you didn't tell them about the fact --
the throwing the gun down?
A No.
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Was Peters in this loop that we hear about?
MR. MCKESSON: Oh, that's a separate question as opposed to be being
present.
DET HANSON: Correct.
MR. MCKESSON: Was he in the loop?
Q BY DET HANSON: 'Cause I'm trying to see if -- if would you have
talked in front of Peters to address this.
A That's why I don't think he was in the meeting. Sgt. Peters was
not in the loop.
Q Okay. Okay.
Q BY DET. COX: All these other guys that are there are in the
loop?
A Yes, sir.
Q But Rios is not there. So, Rios is in or out of the loop?
A Rios is trying to be in the loop. But we're trying to protect
him. We try to protect -- 'cause he was a probationer at the time. And what
we do, is with the probationers, we try to expose them to as little as
possible, uh, fearing that if something goes sideways, they can get fired
immediately. And we don't want to put them in a bad position.
Q BY DET. HANSON: And we know where Rios was.
A What do you mean by where he was?
Q We know by his testimony that Rios was told to go to the front
of the location.
A Yeah, we always sent somebody --
Q But we didn't know if that was prior to the meeting.
A Probably during the meeting. When the meeting's gonna take
place, we send someone as a diversionary person. Just in case other people
show up, we don't let them in the building.
Q I'm just trying to see if this helps you a little bit.
A It does a little bit.
Q And you -- and you're saying that Rios wasn't there. I know
where Rios was. So, that --
A Okay.
Q -- makes sense.
Q BY DET. COX: So, what's the meeting about?
A Uhm, we discuss logistics. Uhm, -- uh, we have to formulate a
plan, as far as, uh, what the, uh, O.P. is about. Uh, and we already had
that covered. But, uh, we had to formulate a plan as far as, uh, how we kept
in contact with the supervisor, how we had a chase unit at all times, uh, how
we, uhm --
Q And these things were not true?
A No.
Q Okay. Go ahead.
A And we, uhm, -- how we -- I think he said that we needed to say
that we were checking in every fifteen minutes with the chase car or
something like that.
Q Who was telling you this? Ortiz?
A Sgt. Ortiz. Yes. Uhm, what else did he say? Uh, Sgt. Ortiz had
a concern. He says, "Are you sure you were standing here when you shot him?
Because the -- the injury to the head looked like it was from the rear."
He told me something like that. He goes, "We need to -- I mean,
are you sure you were over here and not over there?" I said, "No. Believe
me. I was right here." I mean, if it wasn't -- if I wasn't standing right
here, we would have said wherever it would have been appropriate.
But, uh, where I said, where -- where in the diagram it shows
where I was standing, that's exactly where I was standing. Uhm, but he had
a concern that the -- the injury looked like it came from the rear, not from
the front.
Q So, you're setting up the shooting scene, what's favorable to you
and Officer Durden?
A Right.
Q And that's --
A I mean, that --
Q -- that's what this was about?
A That's what the meetings are usually about. When we meet, uh,
we discuss how do we make this look as good as possible.
Q BY DET HANSON: As far as tactics, --
A Everything.
Q -- enough units, or -- enough units. And because it was an O.P.,
we all know that there's a lot more than just two guys sitting in a hotel,
or in a room. You have to have --
DET. COX: The procedure.
DET. HANSON: -- the procedure of other people helping.
THE WITNESS: When we had this meeting, we're covering -- we're
covering -- we're covering procedures -- all the logistics, as I mentioned
earlier. And when I say "logistics" I mean the tactics, the communication,
the, uh, tactics, the -- up to where the shooting occurred, everything is
covered in that meeting before all the -- all the other supervisors and
captains and everybody show up, an officer-involved shooting team.
You know how everybody thinks that the officers are split up and
you go sit in one room and you go sit in another room? I've never seen it
happen.
You get together with your supervisor and the officers involved,
and you discuss everything. And then, that's your -- that's your story. And
--
Q BY DET. COX: Well, when did -- when did you and Durden get your
story together about what happened?
A The story went as it -- as it -- as everything occurred, that was
what happened, as far as we were concerned. In other words, uhm, -- uh,
where we fired from, that stayed true to -- true to form, as to how it
happened.
Q But Mr. Ovando coming into the room, when did you guys get that
together?
A That actually got -- came together when Durden was -- uh, like
I said earlier, that Durden was doing all the talking, remember I told you
that Durden was doing all the talking? And I just listened to him. And as
he was telling the story to Ortiz, I'm going, okay. "That's exactly how it
happened. Yes." Uh, and then, when we left the, uh -- 12th and
Lake, I believe it was Lieutenant -- there's a lieutenant that works Rampart.
Not Weaver. There's a lieutenant that transported us back to Rampart.
And me and Durden, they put us in the room together, the
C.R.A.S.H. office. And we sat there and discussed it a little bit more as
to as far as, you know, communication and things like that.
Uh, I can't remember the lieutenant's name.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Where -- let me just ask. Where was this
meeting? You guys were all standing somewhere.
MR. MCKESSON: What meeting? Which meeting?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: The meeting -- the first one with Montoya, and
Ortiz, and --
A I believe, uh, where the apartment is, 407. I believe we walked
away from the scene, like down the hallway somewhere. I can't -- I don't
remember if we walked this way or this way, or this way. But we walked away
from the scene.
Q BY DET. HANSON: You're looking at Exhibit 1. Correct?
A I'm sorry. I'm looking at Exhibit No. 1, uh, the diagram of the
apartment building on the 4th floor.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And you don't know if you walked north, south,
or west? Uh, those are the hallways, at least. And -- and you don't
remember?
A I'm -- I'm trying to think the best I can, or -- or reach back
in my memory as best I can. I know we walked away from the scene, because
we had officers standing around there. And --
Q BY DET. HANSON: The same floor?
A Yeah. On the 4th floor.
Q Okay.
A And, yeah, we stayed on the -- I'm sorry.
Q Or, so -- so, you're meeting was on the same -- on the 4th floor?
A Just away from the, uh --
Q Just away from the scene.
A -- the apartment. Yeah.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Had an R.A. showed up yet?
A No.
Q Had anyone -- did anyone take any photographs of Mr. Ovando when
he was down? Do you recall?
A I remember somebody taking photos -- Polaroids though. Q
Who would that have been?
A I don't know. Put, uh, for some reason, I remember the "pachew"
and people -- somebody taking Polaroids. But I can't tell you who it was.

Q And was this before or after your meeting?
A This is after. This is after.
Q Okay.
A This is before the -- uh, the R.A.
Q BY DET. HANSON: In this meeting -- and I -- I think we know --
know the answer. But I want to make sure. You and Durden are the only ones
that know about the gun; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Ortiz and Montoya did not know that you had planted the gun? Is
that correct?
A That's right. That's correct.
Q What you were going over were the officer safety issues that
needed to be falsified in order to make this a tactical correct operation for
a shooting?
A Yes.
Q Right?
A Yes.
Q BY DET. COX: The gun, uh, where did this gun come from?
A It came from an informant.
Q You mentioned [CI#6] earlier, [CI#6]?
A That's -- right.
Q [CI#6]?
A Uh, you know, [ ***********************************
******************** CI #6 description redacted *************
***************** ].
Q [ CI #6 description redacted ].
A [ CI #6 description redacted ].
Q [ CI #6 description redacted ].
A [ *************** CI #6 description redacted *******
*************** ].
Q And who is [CI#6] to you?
A [CI#6]'s an informant.
Q For you, or for Durden?
A For me.
Q For you?
A Yes.
Q And --
A But I had [CI#6] before I -- I had Durden as a partner. So,
yeah.
Q Okay.
A I mean --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: [ CI #6 description redacted ].
A [ CI #6 description redacted ].
Q Okay.
Q BY DET. COX: And [CI#6] calls you up on the phone, or calls --
A We talk regularly. I mean, it was a -- I've used [CI#6] for --
for almost two years. So, I mean, I've -- uh, I've known [CI#6] for quite
some time. I would always tell [CI#6], you know, "Let me know if there's any
guns in the neighborhood. You know, where they're at or whatever."
And [CI#6] said, "Hey, there's one." [ ************
**************************************************************
******************* CI #6 description redacted ***************
**************************************************************
******** ].
[ ***** CI #6 description redacted ***************
****** ]. Uh, but, like I said, where we met was on, uh, like Myra branches
off of Hoover, just south of, uhm, Santa Monica. Q And this gun was
exact -- was put on the ground near a tree, you said?
A On a grassy area by a tree, yes. Uhm -- uh, on the sidewalk
itself. But, you know, how the first part of the sidewalk will have grass,
I believe.
Q Yeah.
A If I remember correctly. I -- that's what I remember. It was
like a grassy area. There's a tree there. And that's where it was placed.

Q Okay. And you guys showed up there on the same night [CI#6] told
you about it? And the gun was there?
A No. We were already there. I had talked to [CI#6]. I told
[CI#6], get up there at a particular hour. We were -- we set up. We -- we
parked. We saw [CI#6] driving up. We saw [CI#6] get out of the car, place
it, get back in [CI#6]'s car, and drive off.
Then, I drove around, and put my door -- or my, uh, passenger
door -- which was where Durden was, uh, seated -- right by the, uh, sidewalk.
He stepped out, grabbed it, and pulled it in.
Q Now, why didn't you guys take that gun and book it?
A We just didn't.
Q Why? It makes me tend to think you've done this on other
occasions. This was not the first time.
A What? That we've taken a gun and --
Q Taken guns and not booked them.
A That's true.
Q Well, how many times, prior to this, did you take guns? You
and/or Officer Durden, or someone else that you were working with, take guns?
Give me an approximation.
A That someone just directly came and dropped it off?
Q Or whether you just took guns and did not book them.
A Oh, it's happened many, many times.
Q How many times did you do it?
A Take a gun and not book it?
Q Mmnh-mmnh. Yes.
A I'll be guessing, unless I look at some reports, you know. Well,
a report ain't gonna help me.
Q Let me ask you this, Ray, is it more than ten times?
A I would say more than ten times. When I say, "many, many times"
I mean -- you mean, everybody in the unit, how many times?
Q I mean you.
A Right. Me? Uh, --
Q Under ten?
A Yeah, it's under ten. That's what I said. It's under ten.
Q More than five? Somewhere between five and ten times? Is that
a fair guess?
A Probably, yes.
Q Okay. And the purpose of taking these guns and not booking them
was for?
A For whatever reason.
Q Okay.
A Uh --
Q Usually what did you do with those guns? If you took, let's say,
a minimum of five guns, and that was you counting the one that you -- that
you said you planted on Mr. Ovando, what happened to the other four?
MR. MCKESSON: When you say "you", you mean --
Q BY DET. COX: You and your partner. Uh, --
A What happened to them?
Q Yeah, I mean, did you sell them?
A No. Never sold a gun. No.
Q Okay. Did you put them on people that you wanted to arrest?
A That -- like I said, I want to look at some reports to see if
that might have been what -- on some of them might have happened.
Q But you think -- but you think that's a good possibility, at this
point?
A That's possible, yes.
Q Okay. Uhm, I mean, what else could you do with it, unless you
use them in a crime yourself?
A Uh, I will -- I will say this. Now, that I'm thinking, it's
probably more than five. The reason I know it was more than five, is because
Officer Durden has a house up in Chatsworth. Somewhere up in there.
Q Okay.
A I remember asking him, before this incident occurred, -- uh, we
had -- we had recovered some guns. And they weren't booked. And I asked
him, "What are you doing with those guns? You're not keeping them in your
car, are you?" And he said, "No." He had them up in -- uh, underground in
the basement area of his house up in Chatsworth.
So, I remember there was several that we had. Uh, and even after
all this occurred, I had arrested -- he still had those same guns. One that
I remember was an M-1, uh, carbine that -- I forgot where we got it from.
But we never booked it. He still had it.
Uh, one was a handgun that we recovered from a, uh -- a heroin --
female heroin user that lived in that little Hancock Park area. Uh, and we
didn't arrest her or anything. But she was a heroin user. And we caught her
using heroin. And we didn't want her to keep the gun. We kept the gun. She
had said it came from her dad or something in Atlanta, or something like
that. Uh, and we ran it. I remember running the gun. And it had no
information on it.
He still had -- all the guns that -- that, at any time we had
recovered, and that were going to be kept, Durden kept them. Uh --
Q You didn't?
A For some reason, I just never -- he always wanted to keep those
things. He had like his little war bag and his little backpacks. And he
kept all that -- all of that stuff. He did.
Uh, but, yeah, we definitely recovered some guns that we -- that
we didn't book, on several occasions.
Q This -- this gun we're talking about on Mr. Ovando --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- tell me --
A Yes.
Q -- how long before Mr. Ovando's shooting -- I know you mentioned
before. How long before his shooting did you recover that gun?
A I think we got that gun maybe no more than two weeks before, uh
--
Q Could it have been longer before?
A Mmnh, I don't think so.
Q You don't think so?
A The only reason I say "I don't think so" is because I remember --
I don't remember what day of the week it landed -- the shooting landed. Was
it a Friday or Saturday? I think he said earlier. But I remember several
days before, uh, Officer Durden and -- we were just driving around. And
Officer Durden was in the front seat. And he was scraping the serial number
off the handgun.
Q How was he doing that?
A How?
Q Yes.
A He had some kind of instrument. And he was scraping off the
serial number.
Q Describe the instrument to me. I mean, are you talking about a
file? Are you talking about a spoon?
A No, it wasn't a file. It was more like a --
Q Well, what kind of instrument was it?
A Uhm, it was a sharp instrument. What it was exactly, I don't
even remember. All I remember is he was sitting in the passenger seat -- I'm
driving -- and he's just scraping the serial number right off. And I
remember -- I don't remember if you saying this earlier, that I was thinking
to myself, boy, if these guys were to investigate, all they'd have to do is
look in our car and find all these shavings off of the -- the gun. Uh, on
the -- on the floorboard of the -- the car.
Uh, and also that we ran the serial number like two or three days
before this had occurred.
Q Did you have the gun for awhile before you ran the serial number?
A I think we had it for -- for awhile. Maybe even through like a
weekend. And then, the following week, or something like that. And I think,
finally, for some reason, we decided to run it, or something. Or Durden
decided to -- and Durden, this whole time, by the way, Durden had the -- the
-- the gun. Uh, this gun.
Q In his -- you don't know? You didn't have it?
A I -- I never -- let me think very clearly. The only time I
possessed that gun is when he had showed it to me like in the car. The rest
of the time, he had it, uh, in his possession. When we got off-duty, uh,
wherever we went, or the weekend came, uh -- I don't think he kept it in his
locker. But he, uh -- he had it the whole time.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: You never kept any of the guns?
A Let me -- let me think. Working with Durden, I want to say to
myself that I -- I must have, at some point, held one -- you know, had one
of the guns. But I just don't remember. He was always --
MR. MCKESSON: Can we take a short break?
(Off the record at 2:15 p.m.)
(Back on the record at 2:25 p.m.)
MR. ROSENTHAL: All right. We're back on the record. Do we have the
tapes rolling? Okay. We're back on the record. It's 2:26 p.m. And Mr.
Perez, you're still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: And I can't remember what I -- what I asked -- what we
were talking about when we left.
THE WITNESS: That's true. There was something I wanted to answer.
Oh, regarding the way Durden -- no.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: What were we talking about?
A It was about Durden, uh, and he carrying all the guns. I -- I
remember now.
Q We'll go with that.
A Uh, him always carrying the guns.
Q Hold on one second. One second. So, it was about Durden
carrying the guns?
A Right. You had asked me, uhm, --
Q If you ever kept any of the guns?
A Right. And I -- and I was trying to think. And I can't think
of any situation. And I'm really trying to think. Uh, Durden was always the
one that kept everything. He wanted to -- if there was anything to be kept,
like I said, uh, before, he wanted to do it.
You know, uh, the guns, stuff like that, he always kept. Always.
Uh, that I can remember, I remember, because I'm trying to think if -- if I
had kept one, where would I have put it. And I don't remember. I don't --
I didn't keep one in my war bag. I didn't keep one in my locker. I didn't
keep one at my house. I didn't keep one in my car.
So, I'm pretty positive that Durden always kept it in either in,
you know, his war bag, or in the backpack, or something like that.
Q Then, are you saying that every time you would have planted a gun
on somebody, you would have been with Durden? Or with another partner?
A I will have to look, like I said, at the reports to see if
something -- 'cause I may have been working, let's say, uh -- let's say
Durden's off on a particular day. Let's say I'm working with another
officer. And I'm working with that officer in a particular area that he
works. And he goes, you know, I'm taking this guy. I'm gonna, you know --
and then, that would jar my memory.
I may have -- I may not have been like directly involved, but I
know that, uh, a gun was planted on him, you know, that wasn't his gun, or
something like that. In fact, I talked about the .45 with, uh, but we'll get
into that later. But, yeah, I may not have necessarily, uh -- yeah, that I
can remember, uhm, I -- I don't recall. As far as, your question, uh, unless
it was with Durden, I didn't plant another gun on somebody else?
Q Right.
A What I'm saying is I'll have to look at some reports, like I
asked for, to see if I was in -- I was working with another officer, and that
might have happened.
Q Okay. And we don't want to go into the .45. Do you want to
finish up with Ovando?
Q BY DET. HANSON: No. But other officers would have guns --
throw-away guns?
A Yes.
Q Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q BY DET. COX: Can we -- can we be for sure that the gun that he
planted on Mr. Ovando was a -- was a gun that you had just recovered within
a two-week period time of Mr. Ovando's shooting?
A Yeah. Uh, well, I'm -- I'm a hundred percent sure. I mean, --
Q Okay.
A -- you know, it was a -- it had a banana clip. I mean, you don't
pick those up every day.
Q Okay.
A Uh, if I remember correctly, it had like a -- what we call a
banana clip.
Q Yeah.
A An extended clip. And, uh, I remember Durden -- I remember
seeing him, uh, scrape the serial number off, uh, in the car.
Q Was that a common practice? I mean, guns you recovered was
taking all the serial numbers off?
A It wasn't a common thing.
Q Why that one?
A I think because, like I was saying, I think we had run the gun
and it came back with information. But nothing important. Or nothing, uh,
-- like it didn't come back stolen or anything like that. But we had run it.
And it had information on it, or something like that.
That's why I was saying it was important that we find -- see if
that information comes up in the computer, 'cause I remember -- I remember
running it. And it had something on it. Uh, on the serial number itself.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: So, for example, a gun that would have been
from out-of-State, if no information came on it, there's no reason to take
off the serial number?
A Right.
Q BY DET. COX: Were you in C.R.A.S.H. first? Or was Officer
Durden?
A I was in C.R.A.S.H. first.
Q So, how long had you been at C.R.A.S.H. before Durden came in,
approximately?
A One -- one year.
Q One year?
A Yes, sir.
Q So, the practice of -- of taking guns and keeping them for
unlawful, uh, acts, I guess, by you, uhm, that was something that Durden
learned from you and other C.R.A.S.H. officers? It's not something you
learned from Durden?
A No. This is something that's been going on -- I mean, you got
to remember Durden came from 77th C.R.A.S.H.
Q Okay.
A So, Durden wasn't, uh, -- although, Durden was somewhat new to
the job, Durden was -- I would categorize him as someone as like Rios, who
had been in the mix. Knows what goes on, but was a probation and was
probably being taken care of, as far as trying to protect him. Uh, down at
77th C.R.A.S.H. I mean.
But when he -- when he came up to Rampart C.R.A.S.H., he was
talking the talk from the get-go. I mean, he was talking like he knew
everything that goes on.
Putting you two guys together, would you be more of a leader than
Durden? Or Durden more a leader than you, among you two?
A I was more of the leader.
Q You were more the leader?
A Only because I had been working there longer. I had more years
on. I had more experience than he did. Uhm, and I know, in the past, uh,
we've discussed this, that sometimes he tends to make himself sound like a
child and don't know nothing. I'm just there. Whatever Perez did, I did.
Uh, whatever. But he was definitely -- if I wasn't -- if he wasn't working
with me, they would put somebody to work with him, for him to train. I'll
put it to you that way. Do you -- you follow my -- my rationale there?
He's not someone that you would go, okay, now, I'm going to have
to put him with, uh, -- uh, a P3 or some -- some senior officer, 'cause he's
-- you know, that know what's going on. He knows exactly what's going on.
And he was -- I mean, he -- he had been around.
Q But, when he was with you, you would be the leader between the
two of you?
A Uh, we worked -- I mean, we were partners. Uh, and it wasn't
like, uh, when Duarte came in, or when Tovar came in, or when -- 'cause I
don't know if you noticed. If you look in the -- the logs, I was always the
-- the one that the sergeant would go, "Listen, Ray. I need you to do me
this favor. We're getting this body in. And I need you to, you know, uh,
you know, train them, or whatever."
And it was Duarte. Nobody wanted to work with her. "Ray,
please, me do this favor." And it was, uh, -- uh, Arujo, another officer,
"Ray, can you do this favor?" You know. 'Cause I really never had no
problem with working with whoever. I really didn't. When Duarte -- or when,
uh -- uh, Durden came in, the reason he worked with me was because I had a --
I sponsored him.
Q Yeah, we heard. Yeah.
A And I don't know -- you made a face. I mean, like what's
sponsor. I know.
Q Right.
A You weren't here for a past interview. But the way you get into
C.R.A.S.H. is you either got to get voted-in, or someone has to sponsor you
in. And if you get sponsored-in, you have to work with that person your
sponsoring.
In other words, if somebody came to me and said, "You know,
Durden really wants to work C.R.A.S.H., man. Please. You know, he -- he --
he's a hard charger."
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, we've actually -- we've gone over this. So,
okay.
Q BY DET. COX: He's -- yeah, but he can --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Oh, I'm sorry.
Q BY DET. COX: -- just real briefly, just tell me what it is.
A And -- and it just -- I will say, listen, from what I understand
he's a hard charger. He's, uh -- he's ready to do whatever. Uh, he'll take
it to the box. He's a strong guy. I'll go ahead and sponsor him. Meaning,
I'll go ahead and work with him. I'll -- I'll -- we'll take him in the unit.
I'll be responsible for him. I -- now, I think we always gave them, uh, one
month. And the first month, if it didn't look like it was gonna work out,
thank you for your short stay in C.R.A.S.H.
Q And that's Rampart C.R.A.S.H.?
A Rampart C.R.A.S.H., yes.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: How long was it -- or how long were you in
Rampart C.R.A.S.H. before you got into the loop, so to speak?
A Oh, okay. I would say, after I was there about -- I would say
after I was there about maybe six months. Before six months, people just
sort of assumed that I was sort of like, okay, this guy looks pretty solid.
Because I, myself, was sponsored-in. I wasn't voted-in.
Q Who sponsored you in?
A Uh, Sammy Martin sponsored me in. Because a lot of the other
guys didn't know me, uh, in the C.R.A.S.H. unit. I had just came from, uh,
Undercover Narcotics. Came to Rampart. And, uh, Sammy Martin asked me, "Do
you want to work C.R.A.S.H.?" And I said, "Yeah, you know. But I haven't
been in Rampart very long, you know." I -- you know.
Q BY DET. COX: Sammy Martin's in the loop?
A Sammy Martin's in whatever loop he's -- he's in.
Q He's in -- he's in "the loop"?
A Well, let me -- let me make this clear. I worked with Sammy
Martin from, uh -- when did I get to C.R.A.S.H.? Was it August, September
I got to C.R.A.S.H.?
Q I don't know.
A Uhm, I think I got to C.R.A.S.H. -- uh, to C.R.A.S.H. around
August, September. I only worked with him 'til about January, February.
January maybe. So, five months I worked with him. And he -- Sammy Martin
was in the loop. But let -- I'll say this. Sammy Martin was in the loop
about women.
His police work was, uh, great police work. A lot of -- he --
he was really not involved in what everybody else wanted to do.
Q What is the loop about women? Or what -- what is that?
A No, no. Well, when I say the loop about women, Sammy Martin was
the type of guy who, when he'd come to work, uh, and he had a girl to go
visit. We'll go and visit that female. You know, and do whatever. He'd go
visit. And then, we'd come back. But I will say this. That Sammy Martin
was one of those officers that, I mean, was -- he was a great officer. If
you ask anybody, he can drive in the La Mirada neighborhood and know
everybody, and make great arrests.
Q What about you? What about you, though?
A What about you?
Q Weren't you a good officer?
A I was a great officer.
Q Okay. Sammy Martin's a good officer.
A I mean, I think I was a good officer.
Q Sammy Martin, was he in the loop, as far as the stuff that's
going on with the guns?
A No. Uh, as far as -- like I said, at -- six months after I got
to C.R.A.S.H. --
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A -- that's when people really started assuming that he's in the
loop, uh, --
Q "He" meaning?
A Me. Six months after I got to C.R.A.S.H. that's when things
really started to happen. And I started seeing things. And people were
trusting me in seeing things.
Q But "in the loop", what does that mean, Ray?
A Like I said earlier, "in the loop" meaning someone who is willing
to take it to the box. And what is "take it to the box" mean? Uh, someone
who is willing to perjure themselves --
Q Okay.
A -- uh, to Internal Affairs when they come by and say, "Hey, did
this happen? Did this guy get beat up?" And the guy's gonna go, "No."
Well, we saw this guy who said that he saw you. No.
Q Fix a shooting? That would be a -- that could be in the loop?
A From that spectrum all the way on down.
Q Okay.
A That's -- that's what I mean by that.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: How could Sammy -- I mean, I would assume
Sammy Martin is in C.R.A.S.H. --
A Right.
Q -- he was in C.R.A.S.H. three of your first six months?
A Uh, right.
Q Okay. In fact, longer than that.
A No. We just worked together for about five or six months.
Q And then, what did -- where did --
A He left. He went to Detectives.
Q Okay. You're saying, you know, here you are. You're sponsored
by Sammy.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Within six months, you're in this loop with officers who are
willing to lie, to cover up misconduct. And I'm finding it hard to believe
that Sammy was not in the same loop. I -- I --
A Sammy Martin was there before I got to C.R.A.S.H. Whatever Sammy
Martin was involved in, I can't say.
Q Okay.
A When I worked with Sammy Martin, I was very impressed by Sammy
Martin, because we could be driving down the street, and a car goes by, and
he can turn around and say, that was this gangster and that gangster, and
that gangster. There's up to something. Let's turn around and go look and
see what they're up to.
Q So, he -- are you saying that he left C.R.A.S.H. before you got
into the loop?
A Yeah.
Q All right.
A Well, like I was saying, maybe like six months into being in
C.R.A.S.H. I think before then people were assuming he's a solid guy. You
know, he's a solid guy just based on, you know, yeah, he worked, uh,
Undercover Narcotics. Yeah, he's -- you know, all this -- just stuff that
was told about me. But not everybody's just going to come up and trust you,
you know, and -- and do whatever in front of you. And that, yeah, he's going
to be all right.
I think after that, maybe about six months into my working
C.R.A.S.H., that's when people, you know, just trusted in me, and knew that
I was in the -- in the loop.
Q I mean, do you believe that Sammy Martin was a solid guy in that
respect?
A Did I think he was a solid guy?
Q Yeah.
A Well, when you say "solid" you mean like in the loop?
Q In your respect. Yeah.
A Right. Uhm, I think -- yeah, I think he was a solid guy.
Q I mean, did you feel as though he could -- I mean, did you feel
as though he would commit perjury in order to protect you --
A Yes.
Q -- if you were in a bad shooting?
A Yes.
Q Okay.
A He -- but -- but we never got in a situation like that.
Q All right.
Q BY DET. COX: Well, let's go back. Uh, I think we got off the
track here a little bit. Let's go back and finish off the Ovando shooting.

A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Uhm, I think we were last talking about, uh, you guys got your
story together with Sgt. Ortiz.
A Meeting.
Q The meeting.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And that meeting, from what I understand, is just tactics,
logistics. It had nothing to do with the fact of -- of, uh, that you planted
the gun. No one knew that except yourself and Durden, correct?
A That's correct.
Q At some point in time, when you talked to the O.I.S. team, uh,
and Montoya and Rios also talked to them, uh, there was a chase car that was
mentioned in the O.I.S. report.
A Okay.
Q Where -- that's what Montoya and Rios were for the O.P.
A Mmnh-mmnh. Yes.
Q And, now, was that part of the plan whenever Sgt. Ortiz talked
to you guys at the scene of a shooting, because Montoya and Rios are supposed
to be your chase car. That's part of your plans or else if you don't have
a back-up, then, uh, a team to back you up, then you're probably going to be
in violation of some policy if you guys are up there on an O.P. by yourself.

So, you have to have a back-up team; right? And that's gonna be
Montoya and Rios as your chase car?
A The only thing that was a plan, is that we always plan to talk
after a shooting.
Q Okay. Okay.
A That's the only thing that was a plan.
Q All right.
A Everything else that occurs is discussed at that time. Q
So, there was no chase car? I know you said that.
A There is no chase car.
Q Okay.
A There never was.
Q And -- and the contacts with Ortiz never occurred? Sgt. Ortiz
on the radio?
A The contact -- no.
Q Radio communication?
A Oh, the checking in every 15 minutes, or whatever? We talked on
the radio once. Uh, and it was like maybe late into
-- uh, when we were there, he said how much longer are we gonna be there.
And if we needed anything to contact him. And he's
-- he's at the office or something like that. Or -- and that was it.
So, once the whole time we were up there we talked to him.
Q Okay. So, those things in the report, the O.I.S. report, were
Montoya -- Montoya and Rios were the chase car, and Ortiz was communications
every 15 minutes -- those are false?
A Yes.
Q BY DET. HANSON: And those were things that were discussed in the
little group prior to everyone showing up?
A Yes.
Q Correct?
A Yes.
Q Who, then, told Rios?
A Told Rios what?
Q What to say if he wasn't in that meeting?
A Rios, uh, his only part in it was handcuffing the person.
Q Correct. But Rios also talked about him being part of the chase
car. Chase --
A They -- they must have --
Q He talked about that.
A Then, they must have discussed it.
Q Montoya --
A And Rios.
Q -- and Rios?
A Right. I'm sure that what happened was Rios -- or Montoya got
the story. And then, he probably just told, uh, -- uh, Rios, "Hey, we're the
chase car for this. Okay." And that was it.
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: When you're testifying, though, you're assuming
that's what happened?
A I'm assuming that's what happened. 'Cause I don't remember him
in the meeting.
Q DET. HANSON: I can tell you that Rios testified to the same
thing Montoya did regarding the chase car, that you guys were their back-up.
And those kinds of things.
A They were our back-up.
Q Yeah.
A But I can tell you that that was not true. I mean, we -- that's
something we made up as we, uh, held that meeting.
Q Okay.
A That's something we definitely made up.
Q Now, I know, in this shooting, Ortiz was not told that this was
a throw-down gun; correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you think Rios -- or Ortiz. I'm sorry, Ortiz knew that some
of his guys might have been carrying throw-down guns?
A Uh, probably, yes.
Q But mainly Ortiz , when something would happen, would get
everybody together and make sure tactics were covered, who was standing here,
those kind of things?
A The purpose of the meetings with our supervisor, when we got
together like that, was to make the shooting as far as in policy as we can,
with what we had. Whatever it was.
Q And that includes -- I mean, 'cause we all -- if a shooting goes
down, and the shooting's a righteous one, we still all get together and talk
about it.
A Right.
Q Now, there's a big difference between getting together and
talking about it and then going, well, we need to make this up to cover
ourselves here, and make up this. And, so, that's what was done?
A We were covering both those spectrums.
Q Okay.
A The aspects as far as, okay, we did this. And that was good.
Fine. And also, well, you know what, we need to clean this up. We need to
cover that up, or whatever else.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Whose idea was it to come up with the chase
car?
A Ortiz'. And also the part about, uh, checking in every 15
minutes, or whatever it was, that was Ortiz.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Do you know, uhm, -- this is getting a little
technical. But, Ortiz -- uh, the story was that, uh, Montoya and Rios were
also your chase car on the day before. Now, that's in the shooting --
A Okay.
Q -- scenario, that's what was told.
A Yeah.
Q That they were your chase car on the 11th and the 12th.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And we know that's -- that's a lie.
A Mmnh-mmnh. Yes.
Q Do you know, or was it mentioned to you, or did you hear this?
Who changed that log for the 11th?
A I have no idea. I have no idea about logs being changed. I
don't.
Q Okay. That was never brought up in a meeting they were going to
have to change your log from yesterday to match what was said tonight,
regarding the shooting?
A That might have been something they discussed once our main focus
was done -- the shooting itself and -- and the tactics of it. After we had
been taken out there by that lieutenant, that might have been something they
said, hey, make sure your log reflects that you were here yesterday, or
something like that.
I'm not sure.
Q Okay.
A I'll be -- I'm guessing.
Q Okay. Uhm -- uh, it was mentioned -- and I don't know if this
is part of a story that was made up, or if this is true -- uhm, in the -- I'm
going to tell you what I've listened to. I listened to your tape of the
shooting. Okay. What you told the officer-involved shooting team.
A Okay.
Q And there's a part about how you're up on, uh -- up there at --
on the O.P. And you see someone down there walking that looks all hinkty
and, uh, -- and that they need to probably stop him and see what he's up to.

You mentioned that -- all four of you mentioned that. In the
tape, there is a little discrepancy as far as if it was one person or two
people. But that is mentioned.
A That we called a unit to come down and stop somebody for us?
Q Correct.
A That's possible. I mean, I don't have a real clear recollection
of that. But it's possible that we might have called a unit down to, uh,
come in and stop somebody for us. It's possible, yes.
Q Okay. It's possible that that could have happened?
A Yeah. Sure. Sure. I mean, we were up there doing an O.P.
Q Right.
A And if we saw certain things happening, we would call whoever,
you know, on Simplex. What we do is we come up on 181 Boy. And anybody who
was nearby, close, yeah, okay, we'll -- we'll stop by. And -- and if it did
happen, I don't know who -- what the unit was that came by and stopped and
talked to somebody, or whatever we did.
Q It was Rios and Montoya?
A Was it?
Q Yes.
A Yeah, see, that's their area. That's --
Q Right.
A -- that's theirs. So, I'm assuming that they're the nearest
closest unit by.
Q So, that could have happened?
A Yes, that's possible. Yes.
Q Okay. Uhm, the red rag that, uhm, you saw the red rag in his
hand and the gun was in the red rag.
A Right.
Q Do you know where he put the red rag afterwards?
A To be really honest, and this would be interesting, maybe, uh,
photos of the scene.
Q I have photos of the scene.
A I think it might have been left right there.
Q And I have some photos of some red rags.
A Really?
Q Yeah. I don't -- I can't --
A From my recollection, I'm thinking that, actually, that rag was
-- was probably left right there. 'Cause I don't remember him like, I got
to go flush it, or I got to take -- I'm thinking that he might have just
thrown it to the side and -- and did whatever.
But I'm -- I'm not positive. But that's why I said, you know
what, if you had pictures of the scene, I may be able to say that looks like
the rag that, uh, the weapon was in.
Q When you up into that building, uhm, either on the 11th or the
12th, uh, -- and I think I'm gonna show you some photos in a minute -- uh,
mainly that -- mainly that building had a lot of writing on it -- a lot of
graffiti on it. Uh, do you remember that?
A Yeah, I do. Uh, -- uh, 187 on a cop, or "Fuck L.A.P.D." or
something like that. Yeah.
Q Correct. Is that something -- and I'm just gonna come out and
ask you, 'cause it seems a little odd when we look at the pictures. It's
fresh paint. It's not the same color as --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q -- the rest of the graffiti. Is that something that you or one
of the C.R.A.S.H. officers could have sprayed on that wall to make your story
sound better upstairs?
A If -- if I did it, I'd tell you right to your face, yeah, we
wrote on there to make it sound, you know, more whatever.
Q Okay.
A No. And, as a matter of fact, I really never even noticed it
until I think I heard one of supervisors, or somebody -- maybe Peters or
somebody, say, "Hey, you know what? Get some photos of these walls with all
this writing and stuff like that."
But, uhm, that -- that -- you're going to read that. I mean, you
see gangsters with "Fuck L.A.P.D." on their face. I mean, --
Q Right.
A -- you know.
Q It just looked very fresh.
A No.
Q Paint that wasn't there. And it's something that stuck out and
I wanted -- we wanted to ask you on that.
A No. I -- I -- I didn't see any officer write that. We didn't
write that. I -- uh, I have no idea who wrote that.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: I've got a couple other questions. Q
BY DET. COX: Just one more -- one more thing. You're saying that you
didn't, uh, -- you never touched, uh, Javier Ovando during this whole
incident?
A I never touched him.
Q And, in fact, you never have touched him before ever? You didn't
touch him that night? And you had never touched him? And you hadn't seen
him -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.
A No, no. I have said I've seen him before. Uh, but, you weren't
here in that meeting. Uh, --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: No. I -- I don't remember that. I thought
the initial time you said you didn't remember seeing him before?
A I think it was the very first meeting. Remember you asked me if
I ever seen him before?
Q Right.
A I said, "Yes."
Q BY DET. COX: Where did you see him at?
A I don't remember. But I think I've seen him before. I mean, his
face -- uh, you had asked me if I had ever seen him before. And I said,
"Yes." Remember that?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Actually, I -- I should look at the
transcript.
A We should have transcripts. Yeah. I had said, "Yes." I've seen
him before.
Q Okay.
A Uhm, but where -- his face looks really familiar to me. I don't
-- I don't know if it was just driving around and I've seen him. Or -- or
from where. But I've seen him before.
Q BY DET. COX: You have?
A Yeah.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Before the shooting?
A Right. That's the question you had asked me before.
Q BY DET. COX: It wasn't the day before the shooting in the
apartment?
A I can't remember. I can't remember.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Did you know if he sold cocaine?
A If Ovando sold cocaine?
Q Yes.
A I have no idea. I mean, -- I have no -- how would I
-- how would I -- I don't know.
Q Because you ran into him and saw him out there. But you just
never arrested him. Maybe saw him where drug deals were going down.
A I mean, I go -- I used to drive by there a lot. I mean, working
Undercover I'd go by there. And, you know, buy drugs right there.
Q Okay.
A I mean, you see some of these guys. Like this guy, I know I've
seen him before. But I can't tell you where or how many times, or --
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: This guy being the individual you call
"Mousey"?
A Mousey, the photo I was supplied with.
DET. HANSON: Yes.
MR. ROSENTHAL: They haven't marked that. But we'll just say it's --
it's Booking -- it's a photo with a booking number of 5301552, dated 7/04/97.

Q BY DET. COX: Detective Gonzalez ever interviewed you, uh, -- she
was, uh -- may have been a female detective?
A Yeah, we talked about this before.
Q Okay. You can't recall?
A You know, she may have. Was it -- it wasn't the same night,
though, was it?
Q I doubt it.
A Was it a week or so later, or something, maybe?
Q I don't know if she interviewed you at all. That's why I was
asking.
A I mean, I -- I'd see her all the time is the problem. And I
don't know if I was just talking to her about what happened, or if she
actually had a inter- -- a formal interview with me.
Q Well, she actually handled the case on the attempt murder on you.
A I don't recall. You know, I really just don't recall a formal
interview with her.
Q Okay. Well, I can't think of anything else, at this point.
Maybe it's --
MR. ROSENTHAL: One -- well, actually one other thing that's related
to this.
DET. COX: Okay. Go ahead.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Uhm, the 18th -- excuse me. The 18th Street
injunction, apparently, there were, uhm -- and I haven't seen the
declarations yet in support of that. But, apparently, there were references
to this particular shooting -- the Ovando shooting, as well as the Shatto
Place one.
A Okay.
Q Do you remember if you ever did any declarations in support of
that injunction?
A I think I did.
Q And you would have talked about this shooting? Do you remember
that?
A No. See, the declarations were like printed up. And everything
was --
Q Pre-prepared for you?
A -- pre-prepared. And all I had to do was sign it. Uh, you know,
the -- the -- uh, I think it was Lisa Fox --
Q Right.
A -- and Bershan -- the other female. Lisa Nicole.
Q Okay.
A Nicole Shaw, the other city attorney that was, uh, working that
thing.
Q Right.
A The 18th Street Injunction. They would look into all the
reports, all the F.I.'s, and correlate, and you know, put that information.
And, so, when I would get the declaration, I would just read certain
instances where I was involved, and arrests that I made in that particular
area -- 18th Street neighborhood. And I just signed the declaration.
Q It was under penalty of perjury?
A Right.
Q And that would have been a lie?
A Uh, yeah, some of it would have been, yes.
Q Uhm, let me -- let me ask you then, if you guys are okay on --
on that, there's -- there was something in the paper today that I don't
recall us talking about. And I want to read it to you. And tell me is this
sounds correct.
Uhm, this relates to allegations that, uh, -- here it is. It's
actually on the L.A. Times, Wednesday, September 22nd, A-17. And it says,
"Investigators have uncovered evidence that officers of one C.R.A.S.H.
detail, would "jump-in" or ease new-comers into the unit as part of
initiation right as organized street gangs traditionally do." Does that
sound, uh, familiar at all? Are you aware of anybody being jumped into
Rampart C.R.A.S.H., or any other C.R.A.S.H. unit?
A I have never heard of that. That's just stuff they're writing.
There's no such thing as getting jumped-in to Rampart C.R.A.S.H. In fact,
that's something the gangs do. And I don't if they're trying to make it a
gang thing, or -- or whatever. But that's just something they just wrote.

Q All right. So, that is -- you have no -- you have no idea if --
if anything like that ever had taken place?
A I've never seen anybody getting jumped into Rampart C.R.A.S.H.

Q Okay. Uhm, the .45 -- and you mentioned this in the very -- I
think it was the first interview. Maybe it was the second. Uhm, --
DET. COX: This, uh, tape do you want -- are you going in some
direction?
MR. ROSENTHAL: Oh, this is -- this is different from Ovando. Do you
want to switch tapes on it, then?
DET. COX: Yeah. We, uh, -- can we just take a little break?
MR. ROSENTHAL: Sure.
DET. COX: A five minute break. And let you --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Absolutely.
DET. HANSON: But let me -- let me do one thing.
DET. COX: I'm sorry. He has one more.
DET. HANSON: One more thing on Ovando.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Oh, okay.
DET. COX: Then, we'll take a break after that.
Q BY DET. HANSON: Ray, let me show you this photograph. This is
going to be the photograph of the inside of the apartment. Uhm, it's the
closet area where the chair was. You're gonna see some markings on the photo
where, uh, it shows where, uh, Nino Durden was standing. Uh, and it's some
medical -- some gloves and stuff.
There's two red, uh, pieces of cloth sitting here. Can you look
at those and just tell me, is it possible that those could have been -- one
of them could have been what he had used to hold the gun? Or is that --
A It is very possible that one of these could have been. Probably.
'Cause, see, now, where he dropped it, it would have right about here.
Q Right. Right around the corner there from the closet. A
And I'm thinking that he might have just tossed the rag right in front
of him, or something like that. I -- and, again, I'm just speculating that
that's where he would -- 'cause I mean, where he's gonna hold it? I mean,
he's probably gonna just drop it and -- and drop the weapon. But it -- it
was that color there. The color that -- that I'm talking about here.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And what you're referring to is, uh, --
DET. HANSON: They're not numbered.
MR. ROSENTHAL: The photos are not numbers. But there appears to be
like a red towel or rag right in the corner by the -- by the entryway.
THE WITNESS: Entrance of the hallway.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
THE WITNESS: The -- the hallway there that leads to the, uh, front
door.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right.
Q BY DET. HANSON: You don't, specifically, know, though, where he
dropped it? If he took it back outside? You're just assuming he dropped the
gun out of it and then just tossed it on the ground, like the rest of the
trash?
A The weapon that I saw Officer Durden, uh, produce, uh, that was
covered by a rag is very similar to the rag that's depicted on this photo,
uh, that I'm being shown here.
Q All right.
A Uh, exactly if he dropped it there, I -- I don't recall.
Q Okay. Thank you.
A Do you want, uh, these other exhibits back, or --
Q I guess, they're gonna --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. It's -- yeah, the court reporter is gonna take
-- take two exhibits.
MR. MCKESSON: You're not gonna mark that, in any way? 'Cause you're
gonna look at the, uh, transcript, and you're gonna know what you guys are
talking about.
MR. ROSENTHAL: No, I think the -- the photos -- I think it's --
there's enough explanation on here. We know it's a photograph of the
interior of the location.
DET. HANSON: The closet area with the chair tipped over. A pile of
clothing and trash in the corner of where the closet is.
MR. ROSENTHAL: I -- yeah, I think we're fine.
MR. MCKESSON: Couldn't we just copy it. Couldn't we --
MR. ROSENTHAL: The problem is the xerox copy is going to be difficult.
MR. MCKESSON: They probably have a color copier in this building, I'm
sure.
MR. ROSENTHAL: We can mark it on the photo as Exhibit 3. Well, the --
the problem with that is, uhm, then, really what it needs to be is attached
to the transcript.
DET. HANSON: Or to the -- it says '80 -- it's says '84 on the corner
of the photo.
DET. COX: These are all numbered.
MR. ROSENTHAL: There we go. All right. That should be fine. So,
this is Photograph No. 84 from the officer-involved shooting, uh, book.
DET. HANSON: Right.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. That's fine. And that's what, uh, what Mr.
Perez was looking at and referring to. So, that should be fine.
DET. HANSON: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. It's, uh, 2:58. We'll go off the record and
take a ten, fifteen-minute break.
(Off the record at 2:58 p.m.)
-oo0oo-

E X H I B I T S

PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION PAGE NO.

1 - Diagram of interior of 39 39-43
apartment building 107-108
located on 12th and
Lake Street

2 - Diagram of interior of 62 62
Apartment 407 on 72-77
4th floor

VOLUME 3 - OFFICER INDEX

September 22, 1999, Transcript A

NAME PAGES

Officer Frank Arujo 392

Officer Edward Brehm 324

Officer Ethan Cohan 324

Officer Raquel Duarte 392

Officer Nino Durden 274, 289-292, 295, 306-
307, 312, 318, 327-328,
332-336, 340, 343-348,
350, 355, 357, 365,
367, 369, 371, 375, 307,
380, 382-392, 398, 413

Detective Gonzalez 408

Detective Luper 273

Officer Samuel Martin 393-397

Officer Michael Montoya 292-295, 303-304, 306,
308-309, 357, 366, 368,
370-372, 377, 379, 398-
401, 404

Sgt. Edwardo Ortiz 282, 304, 371-372, 375,
377, 379, 398-402

Sgt. John Peters 372-373, 406

Officer Mario Rios 292-295, 303-304, 306,
357, 366, 368-371, 373-
374, 391, 398-400, 404

Officer Humberto Tovar 392