Rampart Scandal -- The Perez Transcripts
Transcript #1 from Sept. 10, 1999

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STATEMENT OF

RAFAEL ANTONIO PEREZ

TAKEN AT MTA BUILDING, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, IN REGARDS TO
CASE BA109900.


APPEARANCES BY:

Richard Rosenthal
Deputy District Attorney
Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office
Special Investigations Division
210 West Temple Street
17th Floor
Los Angeles, California 90012

Luis F. Segura
Sergeant
Los Angeles Police Department
Internal Affairs Group
304 S. Broadway #310
Los Angeles, California 90013

Brian Tyndall
Detective
Robbery/Homicide Division
150 North Los Angeles Street
Los Angeles, California 90012

Michael Hohan
Detective
Los Angeles Police Department
Robbery/Homicide Task Force
1 Gateway Plaza
Los Angeles, California 90012

Jesse Castillo
Detective
Los Angeles Police Department

Winston Kevin McKesson
Attorney at Law
315 S. Beverly Drive
Suite 305
Beverly Hills, California 90212-4309












REPORTED BY:

Sara A. Mahan
Stenographic Reporter
Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office
C.S.R. No. 10647













































LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1999; 10:10 A.M.










































(On the record at approximately 10:10 a.m.)
MR. ROSENTHAL: All right. Today's date is September 10th, 1999. It is
approximately 10:10 in the morning. We are over at
the offices of the Los Angeles Police Department Robbery-Homicide Division
Task Force.
I'm Richard Rosenthal, Deputy District Attorney. We're going to be starting a series of interviews with Rafael Antonio Perez,
Defendant in Case No. BA109900. Mr. Perez is present with his attorney Kevin
McKesson.
Also present, and the officers who will be conducting this
interview, are, uh, Sgt. Luis Segura, Detective Michael Hohan, Detective
Brian Tyndall. And, we also have with us Detective Jesse Castillo.
Uh, this is being recorded, uh, by District Attorney
Court Reporter. Before we begin, Mr. Perez, I just want to, first of all, set
the stage for this. As you are aware, we are
conducting this interview, uh, based upon the belief that you're going to be
completely honest with us during the course of this interview.
Uh, you are going to be placed under oath. As a Deputy District
Attorney, I have the power to place people under oath. And we'll be doing
that. If it is later determined, particularly if it's determined before time
of your sentencing, October 22nd, that you have made any false
representations or material
omissions, during the course of this or any follow-up interviews, you can be
charged with the crime of felony perjury.
And any intentional false statements made by you, that
could -- that might lead to the filing of criminal charges -- or
I'm sorry, any intentional false statements made by you, may lead to the
filing of criminal charges if it appears that you have falsely implicated an
innocent person in the commission of a crime, or violated any other statute in
making such statements or providing such evidence.
If you do not intend to be completely truthful with us about your own culpability in the crimes we're going to talk
about, as well as the culpability of any other people who we're
going to talk about, you should not proceed with this interview. Do you
understand that?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. MCKESSON: I would like the say something at the outset. I spoke
with my client extensively last night. And I -- I didn't
read this section to him, although, I was mindful of this section.
Now, there's going to be a time in his interview where he's gonna give
information where it may possibly implicate somebody else.
But he's not saying that person may have committed a
crime. And I just want you to know -- I mean, the purpose is --
is -- is to be honest.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right. We're not asking--
MR. MCKESSON: So that what -- what -- what I'm saying is,
you know, because one thing is we don't want you implicating
somebody falsely of a crime. I mean, you put him in a -- in a Catch 22. And I
-- and if he tells you of the circumstance where
he was on a drug bust, and he understood the amount of money to be
a certain amount, and a particular officer counted it, and later
they found out it was less than that, I mean he's not saying he's
a witness to them stealing the money, but he's being honest with
you.
MR. ROSENTHAL: No, I'm not asking for Mr. Perez to act like
an attorney and reach legal conclusions. All we're asking for is
for him to be honest about what he said -- or what he saw, what he
heard, any reasonable conclusions he might have reached, what have
you. MR. MCKESSON: Well, look. Well, that is a conclusion -- I mean, that's
not a legal conclusion.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, we'll deal with that as we get onto
it.
MR. MCKESSON: See it as 20,000, and turns up it's really
16,000. I mean, you know.
MR. ROSENTHAL: As long as he's honest about what he saw,
what he said, what he heard, that's all we ask. Uhm, based upon what I've said to
you now, uh, this interview is also based upon the conditions that have been
mentioned in the September 8th, 1999
letter, which you read during the time of your sentencing, which
was marked as an exhibit.
Uh, that letter explains the circumstances of the plea
and the circumstances of this interview. So, we'll be proceeding under that
agreement and with the knowledge -- obviously, as I
said right now, that we do expect you to be completely honest at
this point in time. Uh, you're prepared to proceed?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. If you'll please raise your right
hand.
THE WITNESS: Do you want me to stand?
MR. ROSENTHAL: Either way. Raising your right hand is
sufficient. Uh, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: I do.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. Be seated. All right. Who wants to
--
(Off the record for reporter to collect cards.) MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. So, we're back on the record.

RAFAEL ANTONIO PEREZ,
duly sworn and called as a witness testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY DET. SEGURA:
Q I thought the way we would start is we wanted to
start-- we wanted to start with the basically conditions of the
proffer, the information that, uh, that you had given Mr.
McKesson, and then was given to Mr. Rosenthal about possible criminal activity --
criminal activity on the part of five, uh,
officers -- a couple of different crimes by members of the
L.A.P.D.
So, in any particular order, what I'd like, if you'd
just give us an overview, a general overview, first of each of
these incidents. And then, later on, what we're going to have to
do, obviously, is go into much more detail on all of these. But
anyone -- any one thatyou want to start with.
A Just under the -- the two that were under the proffer or
whatever. You want me to start with those?
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, actually what we can do is there -- the
proffer that we received, from Mr. McKesson, was, first of all,
related to the shooting that we discussed in court. That was
one. The second one was a --
MR. MCKESSON: I can tell you.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Or -- well, let me -- let me do it the way I understand it.
The second one was a -- a death that involved a
cover-up. Those were the two that involved issues of excessive
force. Then, in addition, we were told that there were three -- potentially three other officers who were involved in narcotics
violations.
MR. MCKESSON: Narcotics or money violations.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right.
MR. MCKESSON: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Which-- though do you care what--
DET. SEGURA: So, basically, what we wanted to get-- what we
want to get today, and what we want to get as soon as possible is
--
THE WITNESS: You want a synopsis of each one?
DET. SEGURA: Right. What we want is a synopis of who did
what, first. And then, we'll go into more detail on that.
THE WITNESS: Uh, I'll start with the first one, uh, that, I believe,
occured sometime around -- the dates are kind of sketchy in my mind. But I
believe it was May or June of '96. Uh, it occurred -- it was the shooting where
Officer Hewitt, Officer
Stepp, Officer Montoya, Officer Patel, the Sergeant, uh, present
was Sgt. Ortiz.
Q BY DET. SEGURA: Which Ortiz?
A Eddie Ortiz. Edward. The call him Eddie. Uh, myself was present.
And Officer Duarte. And, for some reason,
those are the only people that stand out in my mind. I don't
recall there's anybody else. There may have been somebody else
there like perimeter or something, but those are the only officers
I remember right now.
Basically, what happened was, an officer-involved
shooting occurred. We had a Taurus. The Taurus that I used, uh,
at, C.R.A.S.H. parked up front. Well, to start from the beginning, there was never a Taurus there. What we did was, uh, we had, uh, --
uh, commandeered, for better words, uh, a yellow
taxicab.
Sergeant Ortiz was driving the cab. Myself, I was in
the front passenger seat. And Officer Duarte was in the rear
passenger. We had information that the day before, uh, two 18th Streeters
were killed right in front of, uh -- the streets are
going to get me again. Uhm, it's an 18th Street location. Uh,
oh, I can't remember the name of the street.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, we'll be able to get the O.I.S. Report so you can --
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
MR. ROSENTHAL: So, you don't have to rememberthe name of
the street, at this point.
THE WITNESS: At any rate, uhm, the plan was they were going the get four
officers to the rear of the building. We do that --
after we get the cab, uh, all we did was stop a cab driver,
illegal bandit cab, took him to the station and say, hey, we're
gonna write you a ticket. Wait right here at the front desk or
something. We took his cab back to this -- we have, uh, alpha locations
where we meet up. Alpha locations. We met up there. We -- because I
was working with Duarte. And she was
sort of like the -- the weaker link of the unit or whatever --
female. She was -- she was my partner, so I was designated to go
to the front. The rear officers were Hewitt, Montoya, Stepp, and Hewitt. They
were going to go to the rear.
MR. ROSENTHAL: You said Hewitt twice.
THE WITNESS: Hewitt, Stepp, Montoya -- Hewitt, Stepp, Montoya.
MR. ROSENTHAL: You said Patel?
THE WITNESS: And Patel. Thank you. Uh, they were going to go to the rear
of the building and set up there because we had -- we had eyes on the location,
uh, that the gang members were up
front. There was about four, five, six of them out front with a
little vigil.
Like I said, two of the -- two of them had just gotten killed the day
before. So, we had reasonable knowledge that they were probably going to be
armed. You know, they were probably
going to go retaliate -- do something.
We get the officers to go in the back. They set up
there. While they're back there, they -- they catch one of the
gang members walking to the back of the building. They pulled
him. He has a large, uh, caliber weapon, whatever it was. They
detain him. They tell us that they got somebody in custody
already in the back. He was armed. And there's probably -- there's going to be
more people armed up front.
At that point, Sgt. Ortiz, uh, advises him, okay, we're going to do it.
Let's -- let's hit it. We, uhm, -- we drive up
the street. I can't remember the name of the street. But, as we drive
northbound, right to the building that's on the east side of the street, the gang
members are right there. But we're in a cab. The windows are all tinted.
They can't see who we are.
Uh, we get out. And we're starting to approach them right then.
And, you know, they're right in front of us. They all get up and
start running. Well, we have officers on each floor. I believe
there was three floors. Maybe four floors. We have an officer on each floor in the back. The guys -- they had no escape route.
They have nowhere to go, either towards us or towards the back of
the building, towards the other officers.
As soon as this occurs, they start running. And once we
get out and start approaching them, they start running. They go
-- we -- we start telling them on the radio, "They're running back
towards you. They're running back towards you."
As soon as they start running towards the back, shots
begin to be -- be fired. Shots are being fired. Uh, Duarte's sitting behind the
-- the -- the cab. She stays behind the cab.
Uh, myself and Ortiz started going inside. We don't know what's
going on. We don't know where the gun battle is headed, what's -- what's going
on.
Sergeant Ortiz stays with Officer Montoya, who had just
shot, uh, with a shotgun up some stairs at one of the suspects. I
run upstairs. I went up -- I believe to the third floor. As I'm
running down the hallway to the third floor, Officer Patel's back
is to me. And I hear a gunshot. Boom.
And it was a gang member. He's laying on the floor. He
lays back. He's talking. He gets one in the ten ring.
THE REPORTER: In the what?
THE WITNESS: In the ten ring. I'm sorry. It's a center
mass. Or right in the center of his chest. And I see that he's
still like this. And sort of like a little bit in a state of
shock or whatever. I tell him de-cock. Holster up. Holster up.
'Cause I was going to handcuff the guy. And I'm looking at the
guy. And I know there's no gun there. There's -- there's no gun.
Uh, I -- I, then -- as I'm looking at the guy, it's right by the stairs. I see Hewitt and Stepp. They had been
shooting at this guy the whole way around. Later -- I mean, they
discussed that the guy had dropped the gun already when they were
running after him. But they're running out -- down the stairs
shooting at him as they're going down the stairs. But when he
gets down to the,I believe it's the third floor, I see him laying
on the ground right next to the stairs that go upstairs, uh, Stepp
and Hewitt come down. And they're like, "Oh, shit. You know, we
got him." You know, whatever.
They run back upstairs. I mean it took a couple of
seconds. Then, they run back down. And Officer Stepp takes the
gun and places it on the first -- first stair landing. The first
uh, -- the first step to the stairs. He places the gun there.
Uh, at that point, the guy's still talking. He seems
perfectly fine. He's talking. He's like, "Man, what's going on?"
Whatever. He's -- he's talking. I handcuff him. And somebody
told me, "Let's just take him downstairs for when the R.A. gets
here. Let's take him downstairs." I pick him up. I walk him downstairs, uh,
right to where the R.A. finally arrived.
Uh, several minutes had passed by this time. Uh, what
happens in a situation like that is, set up a, uh, not a decoy but
a diversionary person up front so that when a supervisor or
anybody else shows up, hold them off there. We're still searching the building
or something. All the officers meet up that were
involved in the shooting and discuss what happened.
Everything is straightened out, cleaned up, whatever.
That's -- that's what happens. Uhm, that occurred. Then the guy
was -- I walked him down to right where the R.A. met us in the front of the building. Uh, the person that put the -- placed the gun down,
they both -- they both ran back upstairs and ran back down together. But,
Officer Stepp is the one that put the gun
on the first, uh, stair landing.
That's the first one.
Q BY DET. SEGURA: Okay. All right.
A Any questions on this one? Or do you want me to move
on?
Q BY DET. HOHAN: Just what I'd like to do is go over the
names of all the parties involved again. Uh, the Sergeant, Eddie Ortiz.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q Uh, Officer Duarte.
A Yes.
Q Okay. Uh, Stepp?
A Officer Stepp, yes.
Q Montoya.
A Yes.
Q Hewitt.
A Yes.
Q And Patel.
A Those are the ones that stand out in my mind because of
the -- of the incident. I believe we had a guy in a building on
the roof across the street. I think it was Officer Richardson. But he was
just the O.P. He never was in the building until after
everything occurred.
So, I believe it was Officer Richardson that was up in
the building. And I believe we might have had somebody else in the outer perimeter. I just don't remember who they were.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. If I understand correctly, you
say Patel was the one who fired the shot?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Stepp was the one who put the gun near the victim?
A Right.
Q Okay.
DET. SEGURA: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Go on to the next one?
Q BY DET. TYNDALL: Well, what was his condition?
A Which one?
Q The suspect.
A He later died.
Q Okay.
MR. MCKESSON: You also told me there was something involving
that, uhm, falsifying a police report. Describe an incident that
had happened differently.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, well, obviously, we described the whole
incident differently. Uh, but, one of the things that we -- we
did right away, Eddie Ortiz said, "Get the cab out of here. Take
it right away." Before we started notifying, you know, people and
everything else.
"Take the cab out of there. Get the Taurus back and
bring it around and position it where the -- where the, uh,
taxicab was."
So, we got the cab out of the there and parked it. So,
when we were interviewed or whatever, yes, we were driving this
police car. Drove it this direction. And it was actually a yellow cab instead of a unit.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: But, in the shooting report, it will appear that you
pulled up in your unmarked police car?
A Yes, sir.
Q BY DET. TYNDALL: Okay. Let's go on to the next one,
please.
MR. ROSENTHAL: If you want, you can try and do it
chronologically, if that's helpful. Otherwise, do it however is
helpful. Whatever's easiest for you.
THE WITNESS: I'm trying to think chronologically now. MR.
MCKESSON: Why don't you tell them about the second
shooting?
THE WITNESS: Okay. We'll talk about the second shooting.
We'll take the -- the drugs or whatever?
MR. ROSENTHAL: Whatever you want.
THE WITNESS: Uhm, Lake. The street, I remember. Lake
and -- 12th and Lake or 11th and Lake is where this occurred on
this one -- apartment building.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: You know what? Actually, do we want
to -- why don't we hold off on this one, 'cause I'm going to have
to ask you a lot of specific questions on this one. We already
have a general idea of what it's about, based on what you said in
court.
So, why don't we skip over this one and go, or generally
describe the narcotics -- the non-shooting incidents. And we'll
get back to this one in a couple of minutes.
A Do you want that in chronological order, too?
Q Whatever's easiest for you. If that helps, by all means. If it's not, just go with what's the most significant. In that order
whatever you think is easiest.
A Okay. I'll start with Officer Perez, uh, Officer
Coronado! and Officer Durden.
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: Perez? That's you?
A Yes, I'm sorry. That's me. I'm -- I'm just painting a picture in my
own mind. Officer Coronado, uh, the same informant
that he's -- he's been using for a long time, gives him a clue
that -- and again, I'm not going to remember the name of the
street. Uh, you know what I was gonna ask was, that if you guys
brought the -- you know, the Narcotics Recap book and the
C.R.A.S.H. Recap book, I could refer to it a lot easier, as far as the date.
'Cause everything is recapped.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, what we're going to be able to do, is
once you give us the information, we'll be able to go back and
find reports, etcetera. And, then, we'll give you an opportunity,
uh, to review those reports and verify that they're the correct
incidents.
THE WITNESS: Because I'm not going to remember the name of
where the building is. I believe it's either Kingsley or
Gramercy, or one of the those streets. Uh, well, maybe even New
Hampshire. But, at any rate, Officer Coronado received
information that there's, uh, several dope dealers in the
location. And they're definitely, positively, they're in there
dealing, or cooking up and cutting up. Not dealing out of the house, but cooking
up and packaging and all this other stuff. Myself, Coronado and Durden
go to the location. We make make our way into the building. Uhm, we walk up to
where the apartment supposedly is going to be the apartment that they're
cooking up. And we listen in there. And we hear some noise. But
there's nothing. You know, nothing that we really can do.
Officer Coronado -- the apartment is right by the fire
escape -- the front fire escape. He walks out to the fire escape
and tries to look into the -- the building, or the apartment --
the window of the apartment. It has a mattress up on the window so you can't see
anything inside.
We decide to just knock on it and see if somebody would
come out. But you hear people kind of like -- but nobody comes
out, nobody does anything.
Coronado! suggests, well, let's just do this. Let's say
that we came out. We offered to -- to buy, uh, from him. And he
was getting ready to buy to us. He came out with the brown
baggie. When he came out, he saw who we really were. He dropped
it. And thats's why we kicked the door down.
So, that's pretty much how it went. When the guys
didn't answer the door, we kicked the door. I don't remember. I
think all three of us, at one point, kicked the door. It took us
a couple of tries. We kicked the door and finally went in. As we
went in, there's one person, uh, breaking rock and putting it
inside the toilet. There's drugs everywhere. Drugs, you know,
rock and powder, everywhere.
Uhm, at that time, we detained everybody. Uh, Officer
Durden, and myself, we recover a white paper bag. Inside the
white paper bag or small little white bag, is approximately a
pound of powder cocaine. We keep that. We didn't book it. We
also, when we get back to the station, there was probably, I would say 24 ounces of rock cocaine already rocked up. And we kept
probably, I'll say eight ounces of already rocked-up cocaine. Uhm, we
get back to the -- the rock cocaine, we
separated and took it out once we get back to the station. We get
back to the station, the defendant's pager starts going off. And
what we normally would do is call them back and see, you know,
what they need and meet us, you know, and just take them down for
whatever.
Well, on this particular occasion, we do that. And the
person that's -- that pages, I call him back. I call him back. I
usually did all the calling because it is was all Hispanics. I
was basically the only Hispanic-speaker in the unit. I was always the one that
made all the contacts. That's why in the reports or
in the interviews with Durden, it's always me talking. Because
I'm the only Spanish-speaker. All the informants -- all the
defendants in Rampart are Hispanic.
We call him. And this was the first time that any
narcotics was sold by myself or -- I don't know about Officer
Durden -- but by myself.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Any idea when this was,
approximately?
A If I had the Recap book, I could tell you a lot closer. If I had to
guess, it was probably, I would say September
sometime. August, September of '97-- or '97.
Q '97?
A Yeah, '97. Uhm, we called the-- the -- we called the,
uh, the person that paged. He calls back says, "Yeah, you know, I
need a -- I need a quarter." And I'm talking like I'm a dope dealer. Yeah, okay. You know, what do you want in Spanish
and everything. And he said, "Yeah, I need a quarter." Quarter
meaning quarter pound of cocaine.
And, initially, the plan was to just go down there and,
you know, get him as he's trying to buy drugs. Which doesn't
really explain why we were keeping the -- the powder cocaine and
we didn't book it. But the actual intention, initially, was to
just go down there and stop him. Well, when I get there, Officer
Durden drives the black, uh, Thunderbird that is in Narcotics. And I'm the
passenger. And we -- we set up a -- a deal with the
guy to meet us at 6th. And one, two streets over from Benton Way
going west. I can't think of the name right now. But I believe
it's two streets over from Benton Way.
At any rate, we get there and we see the guy. He's
standing there. And what it is, is he's driving a -- I think it
was a blue or very dark green, uh, illegal bandit cab. And he has
a guy with him wearing a ponytail. I get out of the car. And right when we park
there, when we first got there, Durden said,
"Screw it. Let's just sell it to him." And I completely agreed. We went over
there. And I got out of the car. I met up with him.
And he was looking at me like who are you. I said, "Oh, no, the
other guy sent me." The guy that we just arrested. And this is
right after we had -- the same day that we arrested the guy. The
same day.
He, uh, he says, okay, you got it or whatever. And I -- it was in a
paper bag. It was a quarter of -- yeah, a quarter of
a pound of, uh, cocaine. I put it -- and it's a little grassy area. I put
it right there in the grassy area. He look around, opens the bag, tears the plastic and tastes it. And he goes,
okay. And he gives me a plastic. And inside was the money. He
then tells me, uh, wait a minute, I also need 500 worth of rock
already rocked-up. Okay. We'll be back.
I get back to Durden. I said it happened. But he also
wants $500 worth of rock. We really don't know exactly how much
$500 worth of rock would be, or what he's accustomed to. You know
what I mean. If it's 15 rocks per hundred, or 20 rocks per
hundred. So we gave him like ample. In other words, more than
enough. Probably like 25 or 30 rocks per hundred, or for what a
hundred dollars would be worth.
So, we meet right back with him. We give it to him. He
gives us the money. I get back in the car and we leave. Officer
Durden and myself, uh, split up the money. I keep the -- or we
kept the -- the other defendant's pager. And we tell the guy, uh,
you know, whatever you need just call us.
Uh, three other -- or on three other occasions, we met
with that same guy. The guy that drives the cab is only the
middleman. He's the one paging us for the guy in the ponytail, who has been
working with this guy that we had arrested.
So, as far as they know, we were just helping the guy
that we arrested. We were just friends or whatever. The next
time we met with the guy --
Q BY MR. HOHAN: Wait. Can I ask you onequestion? What
was Coronado's involvement in all this?
A On this part, other than him telling us how to get in,
his story about let's just -- let's just say that he came out and
was trying to sell to me and him at the door. And that when he came out and started to hand us the baggie, and there was no --
this -- this never occurred. It was just a fabricated story. And
that when he came out, he saw us, dropped the bag and closed the
door, that gave us the circumstances to go in and knock the door
down.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: So, Coronado made up the probable cause, but did not
know that you and Durden stole it?
A No, Officer Coronado did not know anything about any of
the narcotic part.
Q Okay.
A No, he did not.
Q Okay.
AUhm, as I was saying, on three other occasions, there
was narcotics deals with the same person. The second one occurred
maybe -- I'll only be guessing, but four or five, six days later.
I don't know exactly when. We met, and this time, it wasn't the
-- it was the guy with the ponytail, the taxi cab driver, and a
female. Again, they wanted a quarter and some rock, as well. I
don't know why they were buying powder and rock, but that's what
they wanted. And narcotics-- thedeal was done.
On the third one, I was -- I had the guys pager. And I
wasn't with Durden. I wasn't -- we weren't in close proxmity. I
get paged. The guy says, yeah, he wants another quarter and a thousand worth of
rock or 500 worth of rock, whatever it was. But, I'm somewhere else.
I can't get to him. I called
Durden. And I say, listen, that guy wants to meet, again. And
wants this and that. Officer Durden said, I -- I'll run. We were
already off work. Officer Durden say, I'll run to the station and get it. Uh, Officer Durden had a green cooler.A tall cooler.
Uh, in the Rampart station, there's a -- a, uh -- where the
officers sleep. Uh, officers, uh --
Q BY DET. TYNDALL: Cot room?
A Cot room. And, in the cot room, on the left side,
there's a bunch of files and old reports or whatever it is. Well,
that cooler was kept up -- up there. That's where that was kept.
But, at any rate, Officer Durden came back through. He said, I'll
meet with him by himself.
Uh, his -- yeah. I called him. I make contact with
him. Officer Durden goes down there. I guess the guy waited too
long. Durden didn't get there fast enough. The guy left. Then,
he paged me, again. Durden says they're not here. And the guy
pages me again. I said, "No, my guy is there. He's waiting for
you." Or whatever.
They go back. They finally meet. Uh, Officer Durden gets in
the car. It's the male and the female, he tells me. They do the
transaction. He brings back the money, uh, the next day or
whenever I talked to him. He was saying that the guy -- the
taxicab driver was wondering why he was now delivering it and why
Durden was so sweaty and looked nervous. And I also remember, uh,
Durden told me that he had the narcotics in his jacket, as well as
the rock. But he was pressing it so hard or whatever, that he
crumpled up all the rocks.
So, the guy was upset. So, he called me, again. So,
Durden had to go back and meet with him again to give him rocks
that weren't crumbled up. And he told him, "You know what, I
don't want to deal with that guy, 'cause he's, uh, he just looks too nervous, something is wrong with him. He was talking about
Durden.
So, I believe it was just one other time we met with
him. And this time, the guy wasn't there. It was just a female.
The female -- the wife I'm assuming. The commonlaw wife or
whatever.
DET. TYNDALL: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Uh, another deal was done, at that point. But
we began --
Q BY MR. CASTILLO: What about the money? I'm Castillo.
The amount?
A On which one?
Q On this last one.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: You mean how much money did he get?
A I believe it's probably another quarter. Yeah, it had
to be another quarter. That's -- that's what they asked each
time. I think it was a quarter and maybe like some rock on the
side.
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: A quarter is what?
A A quarter pound of cocaine.
Q And how much was -- did he sell it for?
A I believe it was either two thousand or 21 hundred
dollars. Something like that. I believe it was $2100.
Uh, where did I leave off?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: That Durden was too -- the guy didn't want to deal
with Durden anymore. He was too nervous.
A Right. No. Where I left off, uh, the last deal, it was
only the female, not the male. We began worrying that maybe the guy got arrested. Why isn't the guy coming down? Maybe the guy
got arrested. And, you know, his old lady is going to try and do
something, or we got suspicious.
So, we said, that's it. The guy kept paging us back wanting to talk or
-- or whatever. And there's -- we just threw --
I threw the pager away or whatever. There was no way we were
going to deal with him anymore. Or that was the end or whatever.
That was the end of that. Those were the very first times that,
uh, narcotics were sold by me. And I don't know if Durden sold
any time before that.
But, I'm saying, as far as me and Durden goes, that was
the first time we sold any narcotics.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: How did you split the money?
A Half and half. Half and half.
Q BY DET. SEGURA: How much did you get, Ray?
A Total?
Q On this incident, do you remember? On this, do you --
are you saying it came from -- from that -- from this guy?
A Total that came from -- from this guy?
Q BY MR. SEGURA: Did you get money this time that, uhm --
A Each time we met with him, we got money.
Q When Durden went, uh -- went by himself?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And did you get money out of this -- or did --
I'm just trying to get about how much money you got this one time.
AWhich time? The very last time?
Q The last time you got the money.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: The -- the total number of sales derived out of it.
A That's two different questions. No, no, no. That's a
totally opposite question.
Q BY DET. SEGURA: Just this last time.
A The very last one, I believe it was --
Q About how much money roughly?
A It had to be, I believe it was a quarter pound and
probably some rock on the side 'cause he was a -- he always got rock on the side.
And we put it in a film canister. I would say
probably 25- $2600, something -- something -- something like that. Q BY
MR. ROSENTHAL: The dope that you sold this guy, was
it all dope that was seized from this one incident?
A Yes. Up until that point, yes.
Q Okay.
A That was money, uh, the drugs that were seized from that
location. At that location, there was no money whatsoever.
Q And then at, uh -- in total from this guy relating to
this dope that was -- that you guys took from this location, the
pound and the -- and the eight ounces or so of rock, how much
money in total did you guys get, between the two of you?
A I'm trying to add it up in my mind here. Total, uh,
probably -- probably -- well not well above, but a little bit over $10,000
probably. Probably somewhere around there.
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: Five a piece approximately?
A Yeah, five a piece. Total 10,000. Somewhere around there.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. So, now, let's -- let's move on. Next
instance. Q BY DET. SEGURA: And, Ray, was this another instance, this last
one, where Durden goes by himself and you got about the
$2500, here is what I had in my mind. There were about three
narcotics, uh, incidents you were going to tell us about. Am I
wrong on that? Three different nar- --
DET. TYNDALL: Let's just let him go and talk.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Go on to the next one.
DET. TYNDALL: Yeah.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Next incident of criminal conduct by
you or another police officer, that you're aware of.
A Okay. I have a question. Can I ask my attorney?
DET. TYNDALL: Certainly.
THE WITNESS: Because it may be something that you guys
are -- I don't know. You know, I was going to ask you this. That maybe there
should have been some guidelines as to what I can talk
about and can't talk about.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, there are no guidelines about what you
can or can't talk about. You need to --
THE WITNESS: As far as -- no, 'cause we had talked about, I
believe, in the letter saying something that if you guys were
investigating it, I can't talk about it or something?
MR. ROSENTHAL: No, no, no. What you need to understand --
why don't you sit back down now? The guidelines of this is you --
we need to hear everything.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: What we've done is we've -- the letter
discusses the -- basically, the difference between transactional
immunity and derivative use immunity. What we've done is, uh, transactional immunity means, if we were to grant you that, you
cannot be prosecuted for anything you talk about. We haven't done
that.
What we've given you is derivative use immunity, which
says that we will not use anything that you say against you, nor
will we learn -- will we use anything that we've learned from what
you've said, against you.
So, in essence, anything derived from what you've told
us, we cannot -- and come back and prosecute you for it. Uh, if,
however, we get independent evidence -- if there's something else
that we had been investigating, and we got independently, we can
use that to prosecute you for one of these crimes, at a later
time. So --
THE WITNESS: That's my concern.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right.
THE WITNESS: Because one of the instances were in- -- was
investigated. And I don't think the investigation was ever
closed.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, the -- the fact is, what all that
means, for your purposes, is that anything that's discovered
beforehand, that's independent of these conversations,
can used -- be used against you. And there's nothing you can do
about that.
However, uh, if you tell us about it, now, at the
current time, we're not going to be able to use what you tell us,
or what we learn from what you -- uh, you told us -- against you.
So, it is in everybody's interest, at this point --
THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. ROSENTHAL: -- for you to tell us everything, and be as
honest and forthright about it as possible.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I just --
MR. ROSENTHAL: So, those are the guidelines.
THE WITNESS: -- wanted to see what the guideline was or
whatever. Uh, I want to talk about the incident that occurred on
Hoover -- or -- yeah, Hoover Street, a supposed, uh, home invasion
robbery. I don't know if you guys are aware of that.
@DET. TYNDALL: Yeah.
DET. SEGURA: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Uh, you want from the beginning on that?
DET. TYNDALL: Sure.
DET. SEGURA: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Uh, Officer Durden and I received information
that there's a lady that lives -- I don't know the apartment
number, but like 4th and Hoover area, who was dealing narcotics.
As a matter of fact, if I remember correctly -- I'm not a hundred percent
sure. But I believe it came from Bella. Bella Quesada. DET. SEGURA:
Mmnh-mmnh.
THE WITNESS: I believe that clue -- that clue came from her,
if I remember correctly. At any rate, we went to the location. Uh, the way the
female described it that Durden came in through
the back and I came in through the front, we described it that we
both came through the front and knocked on the door.
Now, the way she described it was correct. Durden went
through the back. And I came in through the front. When we --
uh, when we get there, there's -- we're thinking it's just going
to be an older lady, her kid -- her child. They both go to school. So, we're thinking they're at school. We're thinking
it's just going to be the lady. There's like 10, 15 -- or 10 to
12 people inside.
So, right away, who's the lady of the house? This --
this is the lady of the house. Okay. Everybody up against the
wall. Pat them all down. We want to talk to her. Uh, nobody
else has nothing on them. We kick them all loose.
Uh, our intention going there was to see if she had any
narcotics or see if she wanted to work anything out. That was our
intention of going there. We get there, and she's not
cooperative. She doesn't want to help, initially. We look
aroundthe -- the place. Under the oven, in the, uh, lower part
of the oven, the roaster, or underneath there, there's maybe, you
know, three or four little pieces of rock in cellophane. And I
think maybe a scale or something.
We get that. And we're telling her you're -- we're
going to have to arrest you. She said -- you know, she indicates
that she's on probation. Now, she indicates that she does want to
help. She's willing to roll-over on who her supplier is.
However, the people that just left know who the supplier is.
If she calls this supplier out right now, he shows up
they're going to tell her, hey, you know who it was. The cops
were just at her house. How -- you know, it had to be her. You
know what I mean? It -- so, she says -- and to back up a little
bit -- Durden did, in fact, have to speak -- well, that's what he
told me, that he had to speak to an attorney about a case. So he
had to leave. When I get there -- when we get to the location, I
am mostly talking to the lady. Everybody else is kicked loose. While I am talking to the lady,
Officer Durden is searching in the bedrooms and
everything else. I know that on the report it said -- I don't
know how much cash. But it said like $1600 worth of cash, or
something like that, that was supposedly taken. That's not what I
was told.
Or I'll -- I'll get to that at the end. But --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: When you're talking about a report,
you're talking about a report that you wrote on the incident, or
are you talking about an Internal Affairs report that was turned
over in Discovery?
A The patrol officers wrote a report. What happened was
the lady called, I think the next day, and made a report, uh, that
there was a home invasion robbery. And then she just -- she
disappears. She takes off, or --
DET. TYNDALL: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Where was I? Uh, at any rate --
Q BY DET. SEGURA: Durden was looking around?
A Yeah, Durden -- and, uh, -- and like I said before, on
most of -- most of the cases that we did, I was always
interviewing the people that talked to us. We can do whatever you want. You
know, we can help you out. No one's gonna know.
While I'm talking and interviewing, trying to get them
to tell, you know, where's the drugs hidden, you know, Durden was
usually searching. He's looking around, finding whatever's being
found --
At any rate, Durden's looking around. Other than the little rock that
we found, he's still searching the closets and everything else. She says there's no more drugs there. Durden
decides that -- or he tells me that he has to speak to a D.A.
This is after he searched -- about a case that he has to go to. Uh, we call, uh,
Officer New over, because I don't want to be
there by myself. He had to leave. Officer New comes over. She's
there. Officer Durden leaves.
Uh, while New is there, I'm still interviewing the girl. Listen, how
can we do this? You know, you need to talk to us.
I'm bluffing. I'm telling her I'm going to call the K-9. We're
going to find more drugs in here. I'm doing all kind of little
things that -- that we do.
She starts telling me about how she's going to help me,
who the person is -- all these things. I'm getting more
information. I even leave her my -- I left everybody my voice
mail number, my 1-800 number. I wrote it on a piece of paper and
left it with her.
Durden gets back. And I started thinking to myself,
this lady is not going to be here when I get back to try and talk
to her. She's going to run. She ain't gonna here. And I was
like, you know, we need to do this today. We've got to do it
today. We have to. And she's like, I just can't. I can't.
And I -- I don't know if Officer New had any criminal
intent, at that point. But she suggests, "Just take all their
jewelry. Take their jewelry and whatever money they have.
They'll be here. They're not going to leave. They're not gonna
leave without that.
So, we look at each other. It's like all right. In the
report, I think it says that myself and Durden took their jewelry or whatever. Officer New, because it was a female. And I'm not
going to be touching a female. I mean, it just -- Officer New
helped take her jewelry off, and whatever little jewelry they had
sitting there, and whatever little money. Everything was kept by
Durden. Durden held onto it --
Uh, we had every intention on coming back and giving the
lady back her little stuff, you know, and she was going to help
us.
Of course, the next day, we go there, and, uhm, she's
not there. Uh, somebody else opens the door. But she's not
there. The manager comes over and goes, "Man, she took off. She
said that she was, you know, a victim of a home invasion robbery. She called
the cops. And she just took off."
And it was, you know, the cop -- or the manager knew we
were cops, because we had talked to him before then. We went to
his office and said -- we asked him who lives in the -- we asked
the general questions, who lives in, you know, Apartment Number 4
or whatever it was. You know, how does she pay her rent? Does
she pay her rent with cash or -- just questions to feel out, you
know, if she's involved in criminal activity, as far as, she's
paying rent, uh, is there a lot of people coming in and out, that
kind of questions.
So, he knew. We had already talked to him. So, he knew
that we were there that day that we went in. And when we came
back the next day -- or actually not the next day, the next
working day. I think the weekend went by. Uh, I think
this might have occurred on a Thursday. We came back on a Monday
or Tuesday. Uh, Monday. Uhm, he says, "She said that you guys weren't cops and
you guys left." We get back to the trailer. As we get back to the trailer, some
detectives are walking up the stairs at, uh, the trailer -- uh, the Narcotics
trailer at Rampart. Uhm, and they said, "Look we have a report here of a home
invasion robbery, with a phone number left. And that phone number comes back to
Rafael Perez. You know, the -- because on my voice mail it says
yeah, this is Ray Perez. Uh, leave a message, or whatever it
says. You know, so, they were like -- and we were like, well,
wait a minute. We were there. You know, uhm, there was no home
invasion robbery. We simply went there. We went to talk to her. She was going
to cooperate.
In fact, we just came back from there. We told the
detectives that we just came back from there. Uh, I guess the investigation was
launched. And they never found her, or she
never -- she moved out or never came back. Uhm --
Q BY MR. HOHAN: Who were the robbery detectives? Do you remember
where they were from?
A It's in the report. Well, no. The report would
indicate who the patrol officers were that took the report. But I
couldn't tell you the name of the detectives who took the report.
But they is a report and a follow-up.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And you -- and you lied to them about
the fact jewelry was taken?
A Yes.
Q What happened to the jewelry?
A I don't know. Durden kept the jewelry. He kept the stuff. Q Okay.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: Was there any currency -- the currency that was
taken, what happened to that?
A Initially, you know, when the detectives were there, and
everything, the jewelry and the money, Durden had that. And
obviously, there was some concern, you know, wherever he had it --
he had -- it was bundled up all together, with the intentions of
giving it back to the lady.
What happened after that, I don't know. I know I never
saw it again. I don't know if Durden just threw the whole thing
away or -- or what happened. But I know we discussed it days
later after this investigation had started. But I never saw the
jewelry again. And it wasn't, you know, pounds of gold or
anything like that. It was just cheap little rings, you know gold
rings. It was mostly rings, as a matter of fact. In fact, the
lady was wearing most of the them.
Q Did you -- what did New say what -- what happened? Did
you get together with New and Durden and discuss what was going
on?
A Yeah.
Q Okay. Did you create a story?
A Yes
Q Okay. And -- and New agreed to that story?
A Mmnh-mmnh. We were all interviewed. We were all
interviewed. In fact, I think in the report, it said that the lady's son had
arrived. We left him out of it. He did arrive.
He had -- he knocked on the door while we were there. And when we looked in,
she goes, "That's my son." We let him in. For some reason, we said, no he wasn't there. Uh, he -- when we got
our story straight, we just left him out of the
picture. So, that's how we left it, you know, no -- no other kids
showed up.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, we -- we only have a limited
amount of time today. So, could we move on? Let's move on to the
next one.
A Uhm -- all right. Uhm, on one occasion, Officer Durden
and Coronado worked on a case that I wasn't involved in. Uh, they did a bust or
--
(Off the record at 10:56 a.m.)
(Back on the record at 11:10 a.m.)
MR. ROSENTHAL: We're back on the record. All right. It's,
uh, -- it's 11:10. And we're going to continue the interview.
Q BY DET. SEGURA: Uhm, go on with what we're -- go on,
Ray. You were talking about Durden and Coronado?
A Yeah, I, uh, didn't work that day for whatever reason.
Uh, Durden, Coronado, and the rest of the unit went and did a door
knock, or whatever. They arrested someone. Uh, I guess the next
day when we get back to work -- maybe two days later. I'm not
sure exactly when, they, uh -- thank you.
They, uh -- Coronado, I guess, this is all from the
informant. This is the same informant Coronado's been using for a
long time. [******C.I. #1] I can't think of his name right now. [*********C.I.
#1] informant that -- that he's been
using for -- for awhile.
Anyway, he calls him up and says, "Hey, the guy that you
guys arrested, he's pissed off." Fine, he got arrested, but Durden didn't need to take his money. That wasn't right. You
know, it just wasn't right.
Uhm, Coronado runs over and tells Durden -- you know, I
just happened to be there. So, I listened in. And, you know,
Durden is like, hey, that's bullshit, you know, or whatever. Uhm,
excuse me.
Uhm, and he, uh -- he says, well, what do you want me
to -- Durden -- Coronado is like, "What do you want me to do, I
mean?" And then, you know, he's like, "Well, shit, we need to
talk to him. You know, we need to do something."
Coronado says I'll tell you what, I'll go talk to the
informant and see what's up. I'll have him convinced, [********
****************************C.I. #1 Description*******************
******************************************************************.
So, Coronado said [***********************************
*****************************C.I. #1 Description****************
************************************************] You know, the
call was already made that the guy was complaining, you know.
Well, sort of -- Lusby sort of left it at, take care of
it before I get there sort of thing. You know, when I get there,
I'm going to interview him. Everything better be straight by the
time you get there sort of.
At any rate, Coronado goes and speaks to the informant.
When he gets back, he says, "Okay. Everything's going to be okay. I gave him 40
bucks. I told him to tell the guy not to pursue this, that when the
supervisor comes here, tell him that you were just upset that you got arrested
and you made up the whole story.
So, uh, at that point, Lusby -- they tell Lusby, yeah, I guess the guy is ready to be interviewed. Or you can go interview him. I
guess, Lusby goes over there. He said it took -- a
90-second interview. He turned the tape recorder on. Uh, well,
what do you need to tell me? "Oh, I made up a story. I was just
upset." Okay. Thank you. The recorder was off. And he left.
And that was the extent of his interview, I believe, with this person. Uhm, if
you're asking me if Durden took money
from that place, I believe so. Just by the way things were talked
out. Uhm, but I wasn't there. So I can't say absolutely
positively.
Uh, but I do know that Coronado stated [****************
*********************************C.I. DESCRIPTION 1 **************
*********.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Next one?
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: The next incident?
A The date I won't be able to tell you. I was working
Narcotics during these things. It had to be sometime maybe I'll
say September, August. No, maybe September. August I went on
vacation. September maybe of, uh, '97. We were searching a location. We did
a search warrant. We were just about done with
the search. And right at the last second, uh, me and
Covington see a vacuum cleaner.
Yes, Covington. Common spelling. Uh --
DET. SEGURA: C-o-v-i-n-g-t-o-n.
THE WITNESS: Uhm, unzip it. And there's stacks of money, you know,
twenties and tens or whatever. Uhm, right away, we
call, uh, Detective Lusby over. He, uh -- he goes, "All right. Just put it in a shoe box." We take all the money out, put it in
a shoe box.
We start talking to the guy. And he goes, "Yeah,
that's my money." Whatever, you know. Uh, there's -- uh, I
think he said -- I think he said there was $22,000 or $20,000 or somewhere in
that range.
Uh, Detective Lusby gets the money right away. And he
says, "Well, you know what, I'm going to take off so that I can
start counting the money. And I'll -- I'll meet you guys back
at the office once you guys get there. Uhm, and he left early
enough to where, by the time we got back to the trailer, and the
office, he was already done counting the money. And there was a
lot of money. A lot of -- but, at any rate, we're talking to the
guy. And, you know, he's 'fessing up to the money. "Yeah, it's
mine. Yeah, it's narcotics money. Yeah, I have $22,000."
When we get back to the trailer, uh, Detective Lusby
says, "Yeah, there's $16,000, you know, even." You know, 16,000 or whatever
he said. Uh, the numbers, I'm not exactly positive on
right now. Whether there was 20 and there was 14, or whether it
was 18 and 12 left.
At any rate, the guy is saying, well, when we asked him
to sign a money slip or whatever, he goes, well, I actually had
this amount. And, you know, sort of, you know the supervisor just
sort of like just said, you know. They kind of talked to him and
said you're going to jail. You're getting a good deal. Relax. You know,
that sort of just relax over all this.
And it was just totally squashed right then and there.
I mean, it wasjust -- the fact that he was upset and was, you know, wait a minute, fine, you're arresting me. But, the actual
amount of money that was there was this amount, and not this
amount.
So, I always felt that it -- it didn't look right the
way Lusby just kind of like, all right, you know, give me the
money. Hurry up. Let's go. And took off there. And had it
counted before we even got back. You know what I mean.
Everything was counted. I'm not saying that he did anything
wrong. I don't know. What I'm saying is when that happened --
and I know that that complaint or whatever was sort of just --
hey. Relax. We're gonna, you know -- we're gonna --
Q BY DET HOHAN: Was McGee there?
A At the search warrant?
Q Yeah.
A McGee is such a mild-mannered guy that sometimes you don't know if he
was there or not. He's just so -- he -- he
probably was, unless he was on a day off, he would definitely be
there. But I don't --
Q Do you remember him being around when the beef was made?
When the guy said the money was gone?
A I don't know if he was there. I know Coronado was
there. Uh, I was there. Durden was there. I think Covington was
there. There were several officers there. I mean, we were all
there. Was McGee there? You know, I -- he's always around. DET.
TYNDALL: That's all right.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, let's go on to the next one.
Let's keep going. Okay. Next incident. You can go into the
three kilos. A Do you want me to start from the first one? Or I'll
start --
Q Or the dope switches.
A I'll -- I'll tell you right now. Uh, everything that I
was accused of, as far as the -- the switches, was correct.
And there was no one else involved.
Q Okay.
A Uh, Quesada, uh, Bella, Veronica or whatever you want
with that to call her, uhm, I guess, in a sense is a drug dealer. But she's
not the drug dealer. She was just paying -- doing the
duty or whatever for her mother. Her mother is the actual dope
dealer, not her. Uh, her brother, from the time -- everything
that I have testified to, as far as getting them a deal, uh, the
way that I described it, I went to the D.A.'s and talked about it,
uh, all of in that is exactly true. Right down to the fact where
the D.A. said I have enough cases stacked up here.
I mean, this is no problem. I'll take care of it. I
never even met with the D.A. I wrote him a note. He said,
"Remind me."
I happened to be in court. Wrote a note, uh, to Mason
and left it on his desk. I was not trying to hide something to
cover it.
Q Well, you knew, at that point, that Quesada was --
A Yes.
Q -- in fact Bella?
A Yes, I did.
Q Okay. So, that part is not true?
A Yeah -- right. Yeah. Q From your testimony.
A I'm sorry. Yeah. Right. That part is not true. What
I'm saying is, everything else, [****************C.I. DESCRIPTION 2 leniency for
***************************************************
************* C.I. DESCRIPTION 2 *************** If you look at
the Recap book, you will see that ***********************
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I mean, in other words, she wanted her family out of
this. She wanted them to get out of here. She wanted her brother
to get out of here. When she had been arrested prior, uh, in that
search warrant that they did by the Sheriff's Department, that was
her brother's drugs. She took the hit because the only person in
the house was a female pregnant. And she goes, "Well, I'm not
gonna let you -- I'll -- I'll go."
What I'm saying is, is she a drug dealer? Yes, because
she transported those drugs to her mother.
Q And you're saying the stolen drugs --
A Yeah.
Q -- that you stole, were transported by Quesada to her
mother?
A Is she a drug dealer? Is she out selling and stuff like
that? No.
Q So, you --
A From the time I -- from the time I arrested her brother
to the time he got out of jail or whatever, I've never met him or
seen him again, ever. So, I mean, I -- Q So, when you called his -- his house, you were actually looking for
her?
A Yes.
Q All right. So, you --
A And -- and the fact that, you know, that like calls were
made and they they cut out and cut back in. Remember when I said
that my plug was broken, and I would have to call right back.
That was the problem. That was really true that my plug-in would
wiggle and, boom, the call -- and the cell phone -- the call would
disconnect and you got to call right back. I've never -- if I
talked to him at all, it was maybe he picked up the phone. And I
said, is Bella there. That was the extent of any conversation that me and him
ever had.
Q And you -- so, you gave her all the stolen narcotics,
all the three kilos?
A I never handed her anything. Here's -- here's what
happened with that. She had indicated to me that -- this is
after she -- and -- and to back up a little bit, uh, as far as my
-- our relationship -- or sexual relationship that started. The
way I described it, the way that she was living with a guy, the
way that it didn't even -- we didn't get get involved in any way
'til late October, maybe early November, that is also true.
Q All right.
A In fact, when I said that I had picked her up 'cause her
boyfriend had beat her up, and she was crying and she says, I have
nowhere to go. I don't know where I'm going. And I picked her up. And that was
the start of our relationship. That is also true. I
picked her up one day and she was crying on my shoulder. The next thing I know, she's putting her cheek on my cheek. And it went
from there.
Q And so, you tried a keep your testimony as much truth as
you possibly could without admitting any criminal conduct? A Yes.
Yeah. Every -- basically, everything, as far as,
how the -- the letter that the other D.A. told me to write,
without the heading, he told me how to write it. McGee showed me
how to use the little computer in the office on how to write the
letter, 'cause I didn't know.
It was not the -- the regular computers that we have now -- the new
ones. It's an old one that we had in there. I don't
even know how to use that. In fact, he helped me put that letter
on a disk and how to save these things. McGee helped me write the
letter.
Q Well, yeah. Well, get -- we'll be getting to all that.
A What I'm saying is what I testified to, was actually
correct.
Q Okay.
A Uhm --
Q So, you took the narcotics. What did you do with it?
A The narcotics? Months prior, she had, uh, --
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: She being Bella?
A I'm sorry, Bella, wanted to, uhm, get a copy of the key
made.
Q Key to what?
A To her, uh, building. Or the front lobby door or
whatever. She gets -- uh, she's in the truck with me. She's with
me. This is off-duty. We're just together. We stop, get keys. She also gets keys of her car -- her car made. She asked me to
keep a copy of the key, uh, to her car and her front door.
And whenever I was coming to pick her up, I -- because
there is no buzzer, and there's no way to get in. So I just
opened the door and go knock. Uh, when I had testified that I had
never been to her apartment, that's a lie. I had been up to her
amount but only a couple of times.
I -- I was also more afraid that her -- 'cause we kept
it a secret from her brother that I was seeing her. And that was
not something that we wanted to let out. Number one, all her
family members are going down, you know, slowly and surely. And
if they knew that she was seeing me, obviously, they're going to
figure it out. But, anyway, I would very rarely go into her
apartment. I was always scared that her mother or her brother or
whoever would show up. So, I would go knock, and let's go. And
we'd go drive somewhere and do whatever.
I had a copy of the key to her car. On three kilos of
cocaine, there was a Mad Hatter seal on it. Do you remember that?
DET. HOHAN: Right.
THE WITNESS: I drove to Home Depot on Sunset Boulevard and
Western. I peeled off that Mad Hatter seal. I went into Home Depot and bought
more tape. The same time of tape. And I retaped it. I just put more tape on
top of the old tape. And I called
her. And I said -- we had a -- had a conversation that her
mother, you know, was still in the business. But she didn't like
the person she was using and all this other stuff. And, in my
mind, and I don't know, the minute she told me that, it was one of
the those things where all you could think about was the money. It was an impulsive act that took the entire -- those three
kilos. The thought of doing it, and the actual act, all occurred
in less than two days. It wasn't like a planned-out conspiracy,
uh, you know, whatever.
She told me. And I started thinking. And I just did
it.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Did --
A I just did it.
Q Okay.
A I never -- however, I never, at any time, handed her
anything. She was under the impression that I had given this
informant -- or this narcotics dealer that I knew that I had
arrested, that he had gotten out, and he owed me a favor, that I
told him where she lived nearby and what kind of car she was
driving. And I told her that I was going to give him a copy of
the key.
Q Then put it in her car?
AI -- I put it -- after I retaped it, I put it in the
trunk of her car. I called her. I parked about a block
and-a-half away. I told her, hey, my guy -- uh, the guy that --
that was going do that for you, he's there. Uhm, but he said he's
just going to put it in your car or something like that. So, you
may want to go check.
I was parked like a block and-a-half away, like I said.
She walks out of her building, comes down, grabs the --
I think it was a Macy's bag, and walks back to the stairs.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: How much did you get for the three
kilos? A If I remember correctly, I think it was 21,000. It
wasn't 21,000 in one shot. It was $3000 here, or 5000, you know,
it was a process -- a slow process, as far as the money.
I always told her the guy doesn't, you know, want to --
a couple of times I told, hey, he -- he waited for you. And you
didn't show up. Whatever. He told me to tell you to just give it
to me and I'll hand it to him. She would always put it like in a
paper bag and then tape it all up. And I always said, "Just put
it back there. I'll just have him take it." Like I didn't want
to touch it. I always made her think that it wasn't me. I don't
know if even to this day if she knows that it was me or not. I don't know.
Q Well, we'll get into all this later. But did any other
police officers, during this period, from January, or it was the
very first dope switch, the one that was done in January of '98 or
something before that?
A I'm not even sure. If there was another one, I'm not
even sure if you guys found it or not. There was one. Oh, and
this is another thing I -- I want to get into. There was another,
I -- I believe I did a dope switch where there was five ounces
involved on a guy that I arrested in West L.A. Did you guys find
that one?
Q No, I don't think we did.
A There was five ounces. I called it out, I think though,
it was in December maybe.
Q Okay.
A Or maybe even November. No, it couldn't have been that
early. Maybe December or maybe always in January. Q Okay.
A They were all done right around the same time.
Q Okay. So, from December, January, to March?
A But there was a five-ounce one -- right. There was, uh, five ounces
that we had arrested a guy in West L.A. area. A -- a
Hispanic guy. It was in his dash. The same thing was done. The
switch was done. But I don't remember seeing it in any of the
investigation paper work. So, I don't know if you guys didn't
find it or the narcotics was destroyed already, or what. But --
DET. TYNDALL: Who --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: The -- I think the most important
issue we want to know now, though, is, during the entire period of
time the dope switches and dope thefts, did any other police
officer know what you were doing?
A None.
Q Did Durden know?
A No. Durden knew something -- and I'll get into that a
little later.
Q Okay.
A I told him after the fact. And he said, well, I want in
on it. Something like that. You know, hook me up or something.
Uhm, the reason I brought that one up was -- want me to stop?
Q No, no. No, I'm sorry.
DET. TYNDALL: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Uh, because there was also a complaint. And
there was also some testimony in court that money was taken from
this lady. And Durden did take it. And we got into an argument
over it, 'cause it upset me. Because I told him that we had went to the -- the guy's house. The wife was there. I asked her, "Is there any
money in the house?"
She goes, "Yes, I have like $600. It's in the back.
It's my rent money." I tell him. He's searching. I'm talking to
her. I said, "It's rent money. Don't touch it. Don't."
We leave. We go back to the station. You know, we got
the guy. She calls me and goes, "Why did you take the $600? I
told you that was my rent money."
And, Durden, what's up? You know, I told you?
He goes, "What, man? I don't know what you're talking." You
know, so, I am like, oh. I got some money and went back to the
lady and gave it to her. And I told him, you know what, just
forget it, you know. I was upset.
When we got to court where I'm testifying on his case,
that comes up. Isn't it true that you came back down and gave her
some money? You met with her at her house and gave her the money,
or gave her some money back, or whatever.
I said, obviously, no. Uhm, but the reason I brought
that one up is because there was two connections. One there was a
switch done on his narcotics. And also, Durden had taken $600 that I told
him not to take, that were there, and the lady said it
was there -- the wife.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
A To get back to this one, there was no other officer
involved in any of the switches or any of the thefts.
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: You were also telling me about that,
uh, Robin Schaffer -- I'm talking to him.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Mr. McKesson just made a comment to you about Robin Schaffer, and whether she was right or wrong when
she identified Durden as making a phone call on one of the switch
cases. Are you saying she was wrong on that?
AShe was wrong on -- let me put it this way. Every
civilian employee that testified or that -- witnesses that you
guys interviewed, pretty much fabricated their story to protect themselves,
so that it didn't look bad.
Uh, Castellanos and Billingslea, uh, when I went in to
go do the narcotics -- I still remember this day. It was a
drizzly day. It had been raining in the month of March an awful
lot, and February. I had a baseball cap on to about here. I had
put on real thick glasses. And I had a really big jacket. And
all I had on was a -- my badge holder.
Not once did Castellanos ask to see my I.D. or, you
know, say, yeah, she read my name. That's -- that's a lie. Not
once was I dressed the way they were saying I was dressed. I think they might
have -- after the interviews they go, oh, yeah,
it was Perez or -- or their conversation, they go, well, it had to
be that other Perez. "How was he dressed?" "I don't know." You
know, and they just went with it because they didn't want to look
stupid, you know, that they didn't ask me for I.D.
I could have -- I could have been anybody. I could have sent
a civilian person in there. They -- they never checked for I.D.
down there. I -- I could tell you that right now. They do not
check for I.D. Anybody can walk in there. I can look at -- I can
get a halfway respectable-looking person, put a badge around his
neck, and tell him to go check it out. And they're gonna give it
to him. Uh, I never shouted out to her the D.R. number or talked
to her in any rude manner or anything like that. When I asked
when I got there, I had the case package. I took the case package out of 90--
uh, the Narcotic's office. You know the Recap book.
That's where I found where the narcotics was booked. The --
that's where I found it. I went and got the case package out.
When I did this, I showed her. I said, "I need this." She
looked at the booking, or the D.R. Number, wrote it down herself,
went off and got it and did everything. Handed it to me and she
had said that I had assigned it three different times. And that's
not true.
Q Okay. Let's -- let's do this because, again, this is
an area we're going to be able to cover. And we're going to be
talking about again. And there are certain --
A Just one thing. There was a lot of talk about being --
another person being in the room. Who was that other person?
There was no other person.
Q Okay. That's the key with --
A I wanted to clarify that up.
MR. MCKESSON: Well, to start it off, he had told me that me
that Schaffer was wrong when she identified Durden.
THE WITNESS: Tell them that? Yeah. That Schaffer couldn't
have identified Durden because I'm positive that I called. I know
I called. I'm the only one that was involved in this. But, when
I called, I always made sure that I was talking to someone who wasn't --
Schaffer's probably the one person I know the best down
there.
When I call, and Schaffer says, you know, "Schaffer", I would hust hang up. I am not going to talk to Schaffer. Uh, even trying to
disguise my voice, I am not going to talk to -- I'm
going to talk to one of the other guys, or whoever that don't know
me. And that's what I did.
I don't know how Schaffer -- I don't know if somebody
handed Schaffer a piece of paper and said, hey, you know, put
these on the log and -- and do them. I did not talk to Schaffer.
And each time I called, I disguised my voice, you know, or
whatever I did, you know, to sound a little different or
whatever. I mean that's what I did. But Schaffer didn't take my
call.
Q Okay.
A I think that was just --
Q And, again, that's areas we're going to cover later.
The -- the next question before we get back to the shooting
incident we talked about in court, is there any other police
officer, uh, who either you know was engaged in criminal conduct
or you believe might have been engaged in criminal conduct, based upon what
you saw, that have not identified so far?
A I'm going to make a very broad statement. And you're
not going to like it. It's -- it's not good. Uh, there's a thing
called being in the loop, being involved. I was not in the loop
or involved in anything, as far as police-wise 'til maybe '95 when I joined
C.R.A.S.H.
When I got into C.R.A.S.H. before then, I had no concept of -- of
what certain officers do. I can tell you this. And you
can put me on a polygraph. Oh, well, I know I'm going to be on a
polygraph. But -- Q Yes, you will.
A Oh, I know. Uhm, and I can say this. And you can ask
me this directly on the polygraph. I would say -- I would say
that ninety percent of the officers that work C.R.A.S.H., and not
just Rampart C.R.A.S.H., falsify a lot of information. They put
cases on people. And I know that's not a good thing to hear. I
know that's very broad.
But the first time I, you know, saw certain things, I
was -- I didn't realize that, like I said until '95, when I joined C.R.A.S.H. in
'95. I didn't see a lot of these things. I just
didn't. I was a patrol guy. I worked Narcotics. Just did my normal job. But,
uhm -- and I'm not, number one, proud of this,
or, you know, it hurts me to say it. But there's a lot of crooked
stuff going in with L.A.P.D., especially L.A.P.D. specialized
units.
Uhm, you go to the Short Stop and you hear, you know,
77th C.R.A.S.H. and Rampart C.R.A.S.H. get into a shooting. We
used to be up at the -- at the benches up in the Academy and we
talk about how things went down. How they really went down and
how they were fixed up. Whether it's Sonny Garcia's shooting of
-- working Narcotics, uh, supposedly, the gun -- suspect went
after his gun, when actually he was running after the guy and the
gun went off accidentally.
Uh, there's so many incidents. I couldn't possibly go
into every one of them. Because I can't really -- really remember
all of them. What I'm saying is, specialized units need to be
looked at, because there is -- and believe me when I tell you, if
there was 15 officers in C.R.A.S.H., 13 of them were putting cases on people.
Q When you say "putting cases on people" do you mean
manufacturing probable cause, or do you mean actually, in essence, framing
somebody who did not do something, for a crime?
A Both. Both.
Q Uhm, let me, in fact, then move into this area. Because
it's, obviously, very important for us. Uhm, when we spoke on
Wednesday, in -- in court for about five minutes --
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q I think when I interviewed you, you talked about
shooting that occurred, uh, in October of '96.
A October of '96, yes. 6
Q Uhm, and you gave me reason to believe on that -- you
actually said that you guys -- that you and Durden planted a gun
on this guy who was shot.
A That's right.
Q Uhm, obviously, looking at the file, we've got the
O.I.S. report, we're able to identify. There was only one
shooting you were involved in, in October of '96, I take it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Uh, what it appears is that, in essence, this person was framed for
assault with a firearm on a police officer. Went to
trial, was convicted with perjured testimony, and sent to prison
son for 24 years. And he's still in custody, correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, I'm going to ask you about this case, specifically, but what I
want to know first is, are you aware or can you give
us, today, any specific information on any other person who has been wrongfully convicted, who's currently in custody as a result
of that?
ALike I said, I am going to need to see those books. The
books I told you about.
Q Okay. Now, we -- when you say "like I said", uh, we
talked a little bit about this off the record, where I just asked
you, in general, to think about this issue. You're saying you
need to look at what books?
A The Recap books that I was explaining to you about. I'm
sorry, they're the log books of Rampart C.R.A.S.H. and, uh, -- uh,
Rampart Narcotics. Uh, we have recap books. We write everything
down -- the person that was arrested, the date, the time, the
location, what was recovered, that type of thing.
Q Was there any other case that comes to your mind right
now, without having an opportunity to look that stuff, where you
committed perjury, and, in essence, said that somebody committed a
crime that they did not commit?
A I am going to need to see those books.
Q All right. So, nothing comes off the --
A Off the top of my head, just like that?
Q Did it happen that frequently that you can't remember? A I am
really going to need to see those books. I
believe -- what -- what I'm saying is there maybe situations where
the probable cause was totally falsified, and which led to the
arrest, which led to the arrest being wrong.
Q Right. And that's, obviously, important to us. But that's not
something we have to deal with right now. The
manufacturing of probable cause for the guilty person in custody is a serious offense. But, right now, what I have to do, right
now, is find out is there any innocent person who did not commit
the crime who is in custody that I got to get out?
A I can't think of anything right now.
Q Okay. Then let's -- then let's go on to this incident.
Uhm, the incident that I pulled. And I want to verify that it's
the, uh, correct one, involves a Javier Ovando.
A Yes.
Q And according to the O.I.S. report, uh, the shooting occurred on
Friday, October 11th, 1996. Uh, and it was in a, uh,
apartment house in the area of 12th and Lake Street.
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. So that's the one that we talked about on -- on,
uh, Wednesday in court; correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. Why don't we start -- uh, we have certain
information from the O.I.S. report about how you got there and why
you were there. Uh, let's start, though, on that day when you went to that
apartment house. Why did you go to the apartment
house?
A We were doing an observation, what's called an O.P. -- Observation
Point -- on the intersection of 12th and Lake. Uh, there was a lot of heavy gang
activity going on -- 18th Street. A
lot of traffic going on. And we suspected that there was -- we got some
information that stuff was going on, because there was a
lot of heavy activity. A lot of gang members showing up, getting out of a
cab, take off. The cab comes back around. They get in. A lot of stuff like
that. So, we felt something was going on and we wanted to look at it.
There was a purpose of doing the observation point. I
believe we were up on the 4th floor looking down right onto Lake
Street. And just north of that would be at 12th Street.
Q And you were there with Durden?
A Yes, sir.
Q And, uh, you had other officers with you downstairs? A
That was falsified. Uh, the -- the part that, uh,
Officer -- uhm, I can't remember his partner. But Montoya and
Rios were in liaison with us. And we kept 20-minute interval contacts. All
that was cleaned-up and straightened-out after
everything occurred.
Again, we met with our supervisor. Everything was
straightened-out. You know, this is how it happened. This is
what we did.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: Who was the supervisor?
A Uh, Sergeant Ortiz.
Q Eddie Ortiz?
A Yes, sir.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: And so, were Montoya and Rios
actually, uh, down on the .street at the time of the incident? A
They weren't there at all. They weren't nowhere.
Q They weren't involved in any way?
A No. Well, like I said, we had falsified the interview and
everything else by saying that, uh, that they were around the
corner working as our chase, uh, to -- in case we needed units to
move in.
Q And that would decrease the reason to believe that you would have had a chance to plant a weapon. Because, at least,
according to the report, it sounds like they were down there and
they would have responded fairly quickly.
A I'm not sure. It was just done for a matter of tactics and --
department tactics. And, you know, that you should have a
chase unit. And we always, in C.R.A.S.H., always do our own
little piece. If we need somebody, then we call them. We're not
gonna call somebody and say, sit here, let me see what I find.
And if I find something, I'll call you in. Because they're gonna
be sitting there all night. Because O.P. sometimes it takes
hours.
And, in fact, we were there for hours, until you finally see
something, you know, you see a guy hiding a gun under a -- a
fire hydrant, or -- or whatever. So, it was a lie when we said
that -- that, uh, they were around the corner waiting for us and
we were in radio communication, in radio communication with the
supervisor, uh, every half hour, or whatever it was we told the
officer-involved shooting team. That never occurred.
Q Okay.
A Uh, once he called us to say, you know, how much longer
are you guys gonna be there? All right. Later.
Q Who called you?
A Sgt. Ortiz, over the radio. Over the, uh, the radio.
Q So, you're up in the observation post?
A Yes.
Q What happens?
A We're -- like I said, we're up there for hours.
Q So what happened? A We had been up there probably a few hours. A couple of
hours. Maybe two and-a-half hours, something like that. And
right before that, uh, Sgt. Ortiz had called and said, you know
how much longer you guys gonna be up there, that type of thing.
And we said, probably 15 more minutes. There's -- there's
activity but we don't see it. I mean, as far as making dope
deals?
Yeah, they were doing all that. But we couldn't, you know -- what are
we gonna do? We can't -- we were mostly looking for guns.
I need to back up a little bit. Two, three, maybe four
days before this O.P., Officer Durden and I came across a Tech .22 rifle -- a
machine gun rifle. The weapon that was planted. Where
we got it exactly from, I didn't know. We used to get, uh, you
know -- do a gang sweep and everybody runs. And then there's a
gun there. And there's a gun. We keep the gun.
Q Why do you keep the gun?
A Keep -- and I'm going to say this. And I have to say
it. That we kept it just to have it in case something like this
were to occur, or something, you know -- I -- what exactly we kept
it for I don't know. Everybody was keeping -- you know, kept one. Everybody.
Q What surprised me on this the most was when I saw a
photo of the gun. I mean, if somebody's going to drop a gun, I
would assume it would be a Saturday night special, some cheap
little nothing. This was a serious weapon.
A Right. And I believe it was fully loaded with rounds,
uh, in it. But what I'm trying to get to was, a couple of days, up to almost maybe a week before, uh, we decided -- and I'm not sure if it was me
or Durden -- but the computers need to be
checked -- we ran the serial number to that gun. So --
Q It had a serial number when you obtained it?
A Yes, it had a serial number when we got
it. When we ran the serial number, uhm, -- I don't -- I don't
remember if it came back with something. Like, you know, it came
back stolen, or no information. But the serial number was ran.
So, I think that we can still go back and check to see if
that serial number was run, at some point. When the serial number
was ran, I don't know if we came back with something. But, I --
in my mind, I knew that that serial number was ran.
Q Okay.
A And it was in the computer. All you have to do is check
the system to see if the serial number was run. And it's gonna come back that a
Tech .22 was ran.
Q So, when was the serial number obliterated?
A That's what I was getting ready to get into. A couple of days
later, we're sitting in the the car. And I don't know what we were doing. But
Officer Durden's sitting in the, uh,
passenger seat. I was always driving. And he files off the
serial number. He takes the serial number off the gun.
Uh, at that point, he was just taking the serial number
off the gun. But he was just taking the serial number off the gun. Uh, now to
get back on to the day in question, on that day I
am standing at the window. A lot of the things that we told the
officer-involved shooting team was correct, again. You know,
everything was -- was correct. I was -- we were doing an O.P. I am standing at the
window. I believe it's Apartment 403 or 404. And I'm facing the
Lake Street. Uh, this room's got all kind of stuff in it, trash,
turned over couch. It's dark. The apartment building is supposed to be
abandoned. Uh, it's all boarded up. We climbed a big tall
fence. We went around a window. We got in somehow into the
building.
Uh, we did walk around. We had told the
officer-involved shooting team that we searched every room. You
know, made sure it was abandoned. We did walk around. The
building was empty. Uh, so we were fairly comfortable being up there.
Uh, when we were sitting up there, Elike I said, the last half hour, or
right after Officer Ortiz -- or Sgt. Ortiz -- had called us, I am sitting there
at the window looking. I got --
wealways wear earpieces with the radio so that we can hear him.
So, I've got my earpiece and I'm looking out the window. Durden's just
standing around in the, uh, I guess it would be the
living room. It's like a studio. So I guess it would be the
living room, uh, sleeping area. And I'm looking out the window.
And I'm staring and looking. And we were alternating back and
forth as to who was doing the observation.
All of a sudden, I hear like talking. And then, I hear
like, what the -- excuse me, what the "F"? What the -- what the
fuck? Or something like that.
Q Say it. Say the words. We're all adults.
A Right. And I turn around and I see Durden and beyond
him. I would -- where I would be -- Durden would be in front of me. And then another person.
So, I would see about that much of the person. Maybe a
quarter -- not even, you know -- asmall piece of him. But I see Officer
Durden talking and agitated, because he was cursing. As I turn
around to get up and start walking towards
him, I see him pulling his gun out. I pulled my gun out. And
then, all of this that I'm talking about occurred in a matter of
seconds. This wasn't, you know. Uhm --
Q So, let me -- let me -- let me take a step back to make
sure we understand. You're looking out the window. And the first
thing that you hear, that's unusual, is you hear voices?
A Somebody talking.
Q Somebody talking.
A Durden talking.
Q And it's Durden talking to someone else?
A Durden talking.
Q And is this -- is the door of the apartment that you're
in, open, at this time?
A I --
Q Or was it closed?
AThe door would be behind me another room over. In other
words, here is the living room. Here is the front entrance. I'm
in this room over here.
Q Well, in fact, we've got a picture -- we've got a
diagram here of the room. Uh, let me just -- we'll have a copy of
it. This is a, uhm -- this is a diagram of the room that's
attached to the O.I.S report. So, there's only one. Uh, looking at this
diagram -- A I would be over here somewhere. There's a window right
there. Where it says window.
Q I see. You're at the window -- the southmost window in
the kitchen/dining area?
A Exactly.
Q Okay. And where would Durden -- or, you hear voices
emanating from where?
A Over in this area right here where Durden is at. Where
the "D" is indicated.
Q Where the "D" is indicated. That's by the closet, which is near the
entryway.
A As a matter of fact. And that would be the couch that's
turned upside down, or whatever, that's laying on the floor.
Q All right. There is a rectangular symbol that's the
couch. And it says, in fact, on the diagram, indicates overturned chair.
Okay. So, you hear -- you hear Durden talking.
A Mmnh-mmnh.
Q And you go into the living room?
A I -- yes. I start walking from here.
Q From the window?
A From -- from -- right. From this kitchen area, the
window area, this way. In this manner here.
Q And, you're saying you're walking basically, uh,
northwest through the door into the living room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. So, what happens then?
A Uh, as I'm walking from here to this point here, my
final destination was here. Q Okay. Now, you say, your --
A Officer Durden --
Q -- your final destination was here. That's where the
"P" is, which indicates "Perez"?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay.
A As I'm walking from here, maybe about two-thirds of the
way there, Durden's pulling his gun out. As I'm walking here, I'm
also pulling my gun out.
Q So, Durden is located where the "D" is, by the closet?
A The whole time.
Q All right.
A The whole time. When I get to right about that that
location, Officer Durden fires a round.
Q And are you able to see the person he's talking to or
firing at, at that time?
A I could see him, yes.
Q And can you -- can you seehis whole body? Can you see
whether he has a gun or not?
A I didn't see a gun on him.
Q Okay.
A That's like I told you that I did not see a gun at any
time.
Q Okay. The, uh -- you see --
A You want this back?
Q No, go ahead and keep it in front of you, just to help
you out. Uh, so, you see Durden pull his gun. And Durden shoots? A
Yes, sir. Q All right. Did you see the -- were you in a position to
see whether this, uh, the guy he shot had taken any kind of
aggressive acts or done anything?
A No.
Q You were not in that position to see it, or he did not
do it?
A When I started walking towards it, the guy's already
standing right there where the "O" is indicated on this sheet.
Q Okay.
A That's where he was standing.
Q All right. And that's about how far away from Durden?
A From Durden to him? Less than ten feet.
Q And were you in a position, when Durden took out his gun
and shot-- and it's Ovando-- were you in a position to have seen
whether Ovando was taking aggressive action? That's the first question.
A No.
Q Okay. So, he could have taken an aggressive act and you
wouldn't have known?
A Right.
Q Because he's blocked. You couldn't see.
A Right. My first view of him is after I walked out of
the kitchen and I realized that Durden is actually talking to somebody. That's
when I first see him. I do not see him -- when
I get closer, and Durden has his gun out, and I'm pulling my gun
out, he -- I have to react to what my partner is doing.
Q Right.
A He may see something I don't see. So, I'm reacting to him.
Q So, the sole --
A I'm feeding off him.
Q So, the sole reason you pulled your gun out was because
you saw Durden pull his gun out?
A I'm feeding off of him, because --
Q Okay.
A -- he may see something I don't see. You know, so, I
pulled my gun out.
Q All right.
A It was dark -- uh, it was dark in the room.
Q Right.
A It was very dark in the room. We did have our
flashlights.
Q Okay.
A We had -- Durden had his light on him. And I started --
I got my light out. And I know I started pointing my light at him as I was
walking over. Uh, at no time did I see a gun on him.
Q All right. So, uh, Durden shoots. What happens next?
AAnd then -- and like I said, again, this was all
split-second timing.
Q Right.
A I fired. I thought I fired once. You know, once. But,
actually I fired I think three times. I don't remember what
was -- it was three or four times. But it was -- it felt -- you
know, being inside of a room and firing a -- a round is just so
loud. I felt like I fired once. But I must have just kept
pulling. Q I think the report said that you fired --
A Three times?
Q -- two -- two separate times. One twice and one once.
DET. TYNDALL: I think so. That's the sequence
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. But as far as you know --
A Boom. In fact, I told the officer-involved shooting
team, initially, that I thought I fired it once. And they said
there's more than one casing. There's -- I thought I had fired
once.
Q All right.
A I'm sorry.
Q All right. Uhm, the guy goes down. What happens then?
A The guy goes down. Uh, at that point, Durden says, hold
on a second. Or he-- he said something. He goes out in the
hallway. I don't know if he's looking to see if there's somebody
else out there or what. But he goes out into the hallway. I'm
there covering the guy, just looking at him.
Durden disappears -- or disappears out of my sight for a
few minutes. He walks back in holding a -- a red rag.
Q Okay.
A In fact --
Q All right. Let's stop for one second. During that
period of time that Durden disappeared, did you do anything? The
guy's lying there on the ground.
A I'm standing there looking at him. I'm just covering
him.
Q And you didn't call -- make a call?
A Nothing was done, at that point. Q Why not?
A My partner was still out looking. I thought -- well,
I'm sure he was, seeing if there was somebody else out in the
hallway, or whatever he was doing -- making sure it was secure or
whatever.
Q Well, you're involved -- you're just involved in a
shooting, I mean, I would think you would want back up; wouldn't
you?
A Yes. But, at this point, we're sitting -- when -- this
is -- when I say my partner went out into the hallway, this is
three seconds after shots were fired. I mean, this is all pretty
quickly.
Q Right.
A I mean, this isn't ten minutes later. Sure, we're gonna
get back-up. We need to make sure that, you know, as we're
requesting back-up, someone behind us comes in through the door
again, or something -- you know what I mean. My partner goes out.
I'm standing there with the suspect. I stay there the whole time
with the suspect.
Q Right.
A Durden comes back. And he produces a red rag. It was
like a red dirty shirt. Probably he found it on the ground or
whatever. I don't know. He stands right -- the guy's laying. It
doesn't show on here how he's laying. But he's laying on the
floor. Durden stands -- can I stand up?
DET. TYNDALL: Certainly.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Sure.
THE WITNESS: The guy is standing. This is the entrance to the front door.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right.
THE WITNESS: And then, this is the room. And Durden's right
here. The guy fell in the position like this, and I believe his
head was up here and his feet were down here, if I remember
correctly. Yeah, his head was up there and his feet down here.
Durden stands next to him, and --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. And so, his head is near the
entryway?
A Yes, sir. Closer to the door than his legs are.
Q All right. He takes the rag off, stands right by him,
and drops the, uh, the weapon?
A He let's it drop. Boom. He let's it fall.
Q All right.
A And the gun is there. You know, it's there. We didn't
handcuff him, at that point. Durden says, okay, I'm going, you
know, call an R.A. unit. And what we do in C.R.A.S.H., anytime
there's an officer-involved shooting, we have these codes that we
use. Uh, if we say that we need a C.R.A.S.H. ten, C.R.A.S.H.
twenty, C.R.A.S.H. thirty, and C.R.A.S.H. forty, that is the sign
that there's an officer-involved shooting team. All C.R.A.S.H. Units respond to
that location.
Because there is no C.R.A.S.H. thirty and forty.
There's only a C.R.A.S.H. ten or maybe a C.R.A.S.H. twenty. Most
nights there's only just one C.R.A.S.H. unit. But that is the
sign to get everybody there.
We did that. And so we knew that we had everybody
rolling. I think the first person that got on the radio was Montoya and Rios. They were the first unit to -- to arrive.
That's why they were -- we said that they were the ones that were
running chase for us or whatever.
Q Did, uh -- you called a rescue ambulance, at that point? A
Right after we did the C.R.A.S.H. --
(Off the record to change tape.)
(Back on the record.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay.
MR. MCKESSON: Can I just put something on the record? I
want the record to reflect that throughout this interview, with
respect to the question involving this shooting of -- is it
Octavio?
MR. ROSENTHAL: The shooting of Javier Ovando.
MR. MCKESSON: Yes. Throughout -- throughout this period, up
to now, my client has been answering questions without the benefit of looking at
a file. I just want that to be noted for the
record. And the only thing that he's looked at --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Right.
MR. MCKESSON: -- except the one page that has the diagram on
it. Other than that, he has been testifying exclusively from his
memory.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. Very good. All right. The --
the question was, when did you call for the rescue ambulance, as
opposed to when did you call for the other C.R.A.S.H. officers?
A Uh, the C.R.A.S.H. officers were called first. And
also, you have to remember, in C.R.A.S.H. we use different
frequencies. We don't use, you know, Frequency Number 2, which is
Rampart's frequency. Most of the time we will switch to a Clamars frequency or a -- I can't even think of the frequency that we
used. But we always had a signal to go to a certain frequency.
And I can't even remember what the -- the numbers of the
frequencies were. But we knew that always one officer in the
unit, whatever team it was, was listening to that frequency. We
would call it our C.R.A.S.H. frequency.
And then, the other partner would listen to the Rampart
frequency --
Q Right.
A -- just in case something came up. But, any time we
needed to talk about something regarding the unit, we would get on
that frequency. And we would say, uh, go to -- go to, uh, -- go
to Channel, uh, -- Channel Blue or something. We knew what
channel that was. Listen to your -- your radio. And on that
frequency we would put out, we need C.R.A.S.H. ten, twenty, and
thirty, and forty, and -- and the location.
Q Okay.
A And, you know, everybody knew when something had
occurred.
Q And then you would switch to the Rampart frequency to
call for the ambulance?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. From my understanding, from what you've said and
you testified at the preliminary hearing, and, although I don't
have the trial transcript quite yet, uhm, in the brief of the
Attorney General, it indicates that the defendant, Javier Ovando,!
burst -- basically, broke open the door going into the apartment.
That did not happen? A That's something we fabricated, or, you know, that's
how -- that's something that was discussed later. And in how we
explained it later, how he came he came -- he walked in. He
didn't burst in. Well, my thought is he -- we testified, or I
testified that he burst in. He -- there was a big -- excuse me.
That he bursted in and came in.
Q Right.
A I don't think -- I know he didn't come in that way,
'cause I didn't hear no bursting or no -- no kicking of the doors.
If he walked in -- he came in, he walked in.
Q And the theory of the trial was that he came into the
apartment armed with a semi-automatic firearm to execute two
police officers, who were conducting an observation point. That's what the
D.A.'s position was. That's false?
A Yeah. Well, I don't think -- I don't know if that was
the whole position. I -- 'cause I -- the whole position was
whether he knew it was too dark, and whether he knew that we were
police officers at all. I think it had been talked about whether
we were narcotics users and he was there to rip-off narcotics
people.
Q Okay. What I'm telling you is I -- I've read the D.A.
Sentencing memorandum. And that's the theory.
A Okay.
Q And that's the theory that was used in the Attorney
General brief. And that's, obviously, false?
A Yes.
Q Okay. So, Officer Durden takes the rag, drops the gun
next to the body. I am he's not dead, but the defendant. At that point, you call for your C.R.A.S.H. officers, you call for the
rescue ambulance. What happens then?
A We meet with Sgt. Ortiz, Officer Montoya, Officer -- I
believe it's Officer Rios. I'm not positive on that. I keep
using his name, because that was his partner, I believe. But I'm
not positive.
Q The -- the -- the O.I.S. report does indicate Montoya
and Rios.
A Rios? Okay.
Q If it indicates that, then Rios was the one?
A Whatever officer that we used, that would be the
appropriate officer that was there. Yeah.
Q All right.
A On the report.
Q Why don't you give me back the officer-involved shooting
report. All right.
A Uh, myself, Durden, Rios, Montoya, and Ortiz, we --
again, we sent somebody out to be a -- a diversionary person out
in the front. Because there is some people that -- that either
worked C.R.A.S.H. before, or have some insight that once we use
certain codes, and you hear, you know, requesting an R.A. at 1209,
they know something's gonna be up. So, we don't want other
officers coming in.
Q Okay.
A And we set up -- or we send an officer, get at the front
door, if somebody wants to come in -- I don't care if it's the
Captain, you tell him that we're a building search, there could be
possible suspects still around, whatever. The reason we do that is, so that we can sit there and discuss what happened, how it
happened, what occurred -- everything that needs to be explained.
Q When you met with Ortiz, Montoya, and Rios, did Ortiz
and Montoya and Rios know that Durden had planted the gun on the
suspect?
A No.
Q So, you and -- and Durden had told them he had this --
this is the gun. He had the gun.
A Yes.
Q Okay. And did you and Durden have any conversations
prior to Ortiz, Montoya, Rios showing up?
A Yes, we did.
Q And what were your conversations?
A Exactly what they were, I don't remember. I do know one
thing that we never discussed is how it all went down. You know
what I mean, how, uh, you know, you sort of don't even want to
talk about it amongst yourselves. You know what I mean. It's --
it happened. And, you know, you look at each other like, okay.
You just need to fix this. You know, it's -- it's one of those
things where you don't go, man, we just shot a guy who was
unarmed. You don't discuss that. You know, you say, okay, well,
let's get this straightened-out. Let's fix this.
Q Who -- who came up with the idea of -- that the guy
burst in?
A I believe that was Durden's idea.
Q Did you discuss that before Ortiz, Montoya, and Rios
showed up?
A Yes, I believe so. Q Uhm --
A Actually, I think we discussed it when they got there.
When -- when the supervisor got there, Durden wanted to take
the -- I mean, he did all the talking, basically.
Q Okay.
A And, in a way, I said, okay. Let him -- let him run
with it. You know, because he -- you know -- you know, he did
basically most of the acts. I mean, he wanted to do all of the
talking, so he, for lack of a better word, improvised! everything
that he said. That he improvised. He went all out with it. And
I just followed with it. Yes, that's what happened.
Q Okay. And then, later in a separate interview, you
would have said what he said?
A And -- and, right. And, you know, how they send you
back to the station. You're supposed to sit in separate rooms.
And when you go back, they sit you in the same room and you
discuss it more, talk about it more, get your story straight more,
or whatever. That's what happens.
Q Well, why did you testify at the preliminary hearing
instead of Durden?
A Something that I -- I noticed a lot as time went by.
Durden was very smart in that he would always say, oh, I'll book
everything. I'll do this and I'll do that. You just go ahead and
write it.
And, in my mind, now, I think back. I go, you know, he
was smarter than I was, because he let me always do all the
testifying. Well some Spanish stuff was done, or, oh, Perez you
got more time, you testify, or -- he always had me doing the testifying. Always had me writing the reports.
And I didn't mind writing the reports, because a lot of
times it was Spanish-speaking. But it seems like everything --
any time it was a major case, the D.A.'s gonna say, well, let's
get the senior officer. He has more experience about gangs and
how gangs work and what they do.
But it always seemed like in everything that happened,
anything that was -- I always had the majority of the
responsibility, as far as writing a report or -- or testifying in
court. I always did all the testifying in court. He rarely
testified. Even on just simple little cases, I -- you know, the
D.A. would go, well, who is the narcotics expert? I'm the
narcotics expert, you know, even though he's trying to get
narcotics qualified, you know, as an expert they'd always put me
on.
Q Okay. All right. Let's -- let's go back. We jumped
ahead. So, uhm, you're talking about --
A I'm sorry. But he also testified too; didn't he?
Q Not at the preliminary hearing. It was just you.
EAAt the prelim.
Q Uhm --
A Okay.
Q And at what point -- all right, I'm sorry. You -- you
meet with these guys. You talk about what happened. Durden tells
them. You follow along. Did anything else of significance
happen, uhm, after -- at -- at that point between then and the
time, uh, that they started talking about filing charges on this
guy? A Anything significant?
Q Yeah, I mean any conversations. Did anyone -- it
sounds, from what you're saying, that the only two people who knew
that this was a bad shooting are you and Durden.
A Yes.
Q Okay.
A Unless Durden told somebody else.
Q Okay. The only two people who knew that the gun was
planted were you and Durden?
A Yes.
Q All right. At some point, you become aware --
MR. MCKESSON: Let me just correct something. I'm not so
sure that the statement is correct when you said he knew it was a
bad shooting. Because, I mean, objectively --
MR. ROSENTHAL: Oh, all right. Well, let's -- obviously, my
questions are not evidence, so to speak. And that's a conclusion
I draw. It is true we do not know, at this point, exactly what
happened that caused Durden to pull the gun.
MR. MCKESSON: But I thought that he suspected, too, as
whether he knew it was a bad shooting, 'cause he -- 'cause he's
testified it was dark and he's feeding off of Durden.
I think it was clear that it was bad to drop the gun
there. I think that's without question.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Well, it was, obviously, a shooting of an
unarmed man.
MR. MCKESSON: Yes.
MR. ROSENTHAL: And, I mean, like --
MR. MCKESSON: I -- I don't want to argue the fact. I just wanted to get --
MR. ROSENTHAL: We'll let the facts speak for themselves.
And if I make a characterization, that's just my characterization.
MR. MCKESSON: Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Uhm, at some point in time, this case
is presented to the D.A. And the guy goes to the hospital --
A Yes.
Q -- in critical condition.
A I -- I didn't take him to the hospital. I'm assuming he
went to the hospital.
Q Right. Exactly. Uhm, when did you first become aware
that charges were going to be filed against this guy?
A Probably when I got subpoenaed or --
Q So --
A I don't --
Q So, the investigating officer, at the time -- I think it
was a Detective Gonzales. Do you know who Detective Gonzales was? A
Yvette Gonzales?
Q Uh --
A Yeah.
Q Well, I've got to look here and find the initial report.
A She works C.R.A.S.H. Detectives?
Q Uh, we've got -- I'mtrying to find the -- it was a very
short report on this.
A It would be in the P.I.R., the -- the name of the
detective who is writing the report.
Q Here it is. Yvette Gonzales?
A Yes, I know her. She works C.R.A.S.H. Detectives. Q Okay. Yeah. Serial No. 27594. Okay. Uhm, at some
point, did she interview you about what happened? You were,
obviously, interviewed by the O.I.S. team.
A Right.
Q What about by Gonzales? Do you remember being
interviewed by her?
A I believe somebody interviewed us. To be very honest, I
don't remember Yvette interviewed us. But somebody -- I believe
the detectives did interview us.
Q So --
A I just don't happen to remember that it was Yvette.
Q All right. But you weren't involved in trying to get
the D.A. to file charges?
ANo.
Q It just happened, as far as you knew?
A Yeah.
Q You were subpoenaed for the preliminary hearing and you
testified. You testified in accordance with your O.I. -- the
statement you made to the O.I.S. team, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q At this point, did it concern you that you were
testifying on a Proposition 8 serious felony case against a guy
who wasn't guilty? Why did you do it?
A Did it concern me? It's concerned me for a long time.
Q Okay.
A Uh, a long time. I talked to my attorney about this.
Uh, you know, when -- when -- and I'm sorry. Let me just back up a little -- uh,
a quick minute here. When I was offered seven years to plead open, that's two
years more than the five-year deal that I had taken. I could have
easily just said, it's just an extra year. Go ahead and take and
grin and bear it. And this will never come up. One thing I told
my attorney awhile back was I wanted this guy taken out of jail.
And I told him that.
And do you remember the conversation? And I told him
that I think about him a lot. And I do. And I know that some of
you are probably looking at me like I'm an animal. Or I'm the
worst thing in the world. But I've lived with that for quite some
time. And it could have been much easier for me to just say take
seven and forget about this like it never happened. I'm not gonna
talk to anybody. But, -- but one of my concerns was that I
wanted -- and I told my attorney, "I want that guy out of jail."
I do.
So, yes, when I testified, of course I thought about it.
But at what point -- what do I say or do at that point? I mean --
Q You -- you testified at trial also?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you remember if Durden testified at trial?
A I'm assuming so. I believe so.
Q Uhm, did you have any contacts with this defendant prior
to that -- that night? Did you know him from anybody?
A I believe I had met him maybe once before. Once.
Q He was an 18th Street gangster?
A Yes.
(Off the record to change paper.) (Back on the record.)
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: It's 12:30. And we're back on. Uhm,
the only other question I've got, actually with respect to this
incident with Mr. Ovando is we do have you testifying at trial.
Uh, there's also a note in the probation report. I just want to
verify with you that you did say this.
Uh, the probation officer wrote that on December 3rd of
1996, that the probation -- that he left or she left a message with
Investigating Officer Gonzales to have the two officers call
this writer. And it's written that the Officer Rafael Perez
telephoned and spoke for both victims. Do you remember calling
the probation officer?
A That I spoke for both victims?
Q Yeah.
A I don't even understand that statement.
Q Well, it's -- uh, you and -- you and Durden. I'm sorry. Were the
charged victims.
A Oh, I see. We were being the victims.
Q Right.
A Okay.
Q And it looks like it's a -- it doesn't say whether this
was a female or a male probation officer.
A What -- what was said? I don't know if I said it or
not.
Q Do you remember calling the probation officer?
A I'm sorry. This is three years ago. I -- I really -- but if you
say what was said, I might remember.
Q Okay. What you -- I think what she wrote was -- what she wrote is "Officer Rafael Perez telephoned and spoke for both
victims. The officer stated 'There were no injuries. The guy
walked in with a machine gun-- armed. And we dealt with him the
best way we know how. We never knew his motivation. But he
shouldn't have pulled a machine gun on us anyway. He's an active
18th Street gang member known as Sniper. And my partner feels the
same way as I do.
A I never said that we deal with him the best way we know
how. I don't know if he's just paraphrasing or -- I never used --
I wouldn't use those words. I would say, an officer-involved
shooting occurred. And I would cut it very short. You know, I'm
not gonna say "we dealt with him the best way we know how." I
don't think I ever said that.
Q You identified him as an active 18th Street gang member?
A Yeah, on his chest he had a 1-8.
Q Okay.
MR. MCKESSON: Ray? Excuse me. Ray, tell them that you did
speak with his sister or something?
THE WITNESS: I didn't -- as far as what?
MR. MCKESSON: About his condition. You asked if he was in
prison.
THE WITNESS: He has a girlfriend or a wife that was going
through the trial. She would show up. She was pregnant, at the
time. Uh, later on, I guess she got hooked-up with some other
guy. She got a new boyfriend in 18th Street.
But, apparently, she had gone up to see him or
something. And, uhm, they had said that he was fine, or that he
was -- you know, that, uh, that he was -- you know, that, uh -- I don't know his condition right now. His -- my attorney had asked
me his physical condition right now. I don't know what his
physical condition is.
I haven't seen him again. Uh, but other than the
street, that, uh -- the stuff that was heard on the street by
these other gang members who was now dating his girlfriend, that
he was fine and he was up in prison.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Did -- uh, well, he was brought in on
a gurney at the preliminary hearing. Do you remember that?
A Yeah. At the preliminary hearing, yes.
Q At the trial, though, he was -- no gurney. He was
sitting there?
A I believe so. In fact, the reason I think he was
brought in a gurney, from what I remember now, was that somebody
told me that he had needed to have a follow-up surgery done.
So, he had -- months had gone by. He had not been on
the gurney. But they had to do a -- a small surgery. Or some
type of additional surgery on him. And that's why he was on a
gurney, at that specific -- at that specific time.
Q Right.
A That's why he was on the gurney.
Q Is there anything else on that case that you think that
we need to know about, at this time?
A I think it's very important that -- and I can't -- I
don't know if it's an Afa system or what it is -- that --
becauseone of the things after everything that's -- the dust
settled, I started thinking, my goodness, that was the worst gun
to put out there. I mean, we ran that serial number. In my mind, I was thinking that that serial number was run, even though he had
scratched it out days later.
Uh, I'm just saying, I guess for the case, that
something needs to be run to check that that serial number was
run. You know -- you follow what I'm saying?
Q Yeah. Yeah. That, obviously, if you run -- see whether
or not that weapon showed up --
A As being runned. I would say the date of the shooting that you
said occurred October 11th. Maybe a week or so. Uh, I
would say venture -- look ten days before or ten days from the day
of the shooting back. And I believe the terminal that was used was the
terminal at Rampart Detectives, the one where you walk
into the detectives -- the first computer. The only thing I don't
know was somebody already logged on and we ran the serial number,
or did me or Durden log on and use our serial number.
Q When you found the gun -- when it was placed on the --
Mr. Ovando it had a banana clip?
A Uh, yes.
Q And, uh, when you found it, it had a banana clip?
A Yes.
Q So, same -- same condition. What about the -- the
ammunition that was in it? I think, according to the report,
there was something like maybe 17 round in there.
A Everything was the same.
Q Same? So it was just picked-up, run, serial number
obliterated, and otherwise kept in the identical condition?
A Yes. Yes.
Q Okay. Any other questions? I know Brian had a question, and he stepped out -- Detective Tyndall.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: There are a couple of questions I have,
Ray. Number one, how did you determine what drugs to take when
you did the switches or the three kilos? How did you determine?
A Which ones to call out and --
Q Yeah.
AOn most of the cases on the switches, if you remember,
there was only -- if I remember correctly, one that was not like
in the Rampart area. There was one up in Hollywood area. Do you
remember that one?
Q Yes.
A I had occasion to be up in the Hollywood area. For what
reason, I don't know. But I used to work up there. I don't know
if you -- I used to work Narcotics. And we worked out of the
Hollywood F.E.S. Office. And I was up there, and I was going
through a recap. I don't know if I was looking -- I had gotten a subpoena and
needed to go on an old case, or whatever it was. But I was -- I looked at
the recap. And I saw a name De--- Demmons. You think that's the Hollywood one?
Q Yes. Demmons. That's the guy, Demmons.
A Now, I saw that there. And it was old. That's an old
case, right?
Q Right.
A I had wrote the D.R. Number down, because I had noticed
that it was the amount of, uh, grams or whatever. I had called.
And I think they said -- oh, you know what, it was just scheduled to be
destroyed. But it hasn't been yet. And that's when I just
ordered it. The -- the only reason I -- I did that one is because I just saw it there. It was -- I saw it on the recap book.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Did that have anything to do with Liga being the
seasoned officer?
A I don't even know who Liga is. I don't --
Q What unit -- did you know Gaines?
A I don't know who Gaines is.
Q The officer who was shot.
A You know, I read that somewhere. I don't -- I've never" met him in my
life. What is that about? I mean, if I can ask.
I don't know. I have -- you know, obviously, I'm taking a
polygraph. I've never met Gaines. You know, and I don't know who
he is.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: Was there anybody ever inside Property
Division involved any this at all? Any Property officers, anybody
that helped you, in any way?
A None. None.
MR. MCKESSON: Other than by being stupid.
THE WITNESS: And -- and them making up stories as they went
to protect their jobs or whatever else.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Let me step back here.
THE WITNESS: There's a lot more that I haven't gone into.
But people just sort of, you know -- oh, yeah, I remember his
voice. Number one, she definitely couldn't have remembered
Durden's voice. And she got very articulate that she knows his
brother. She knows him. And she knows his voice very well, and
all that. That's wrong. Because it was me.
And Number two, I disguised my voice. And Number three,
I didn't talk to her. I talked to somebody else. They might have wrote it on a piece of paper, handed it to her, and said, hey,
could you put these on the log and -- and order it.
And to look good or whatever -- to not cause any waves,
or whatever, that's what she said. I would not talk to Schaffer.
Schaffer is the one girl that I know the best down there. I would not talk to
-- I would not call order narcotics, and when she
picked up the phone, yeah, this is Schaffer. I'm not going to do
that.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: Okay. Now, went over on -- on the
narcotics incidents. It was you, Durden, uh, involved in -- in
selling the cocaine. Were there any other officers involved in
selling drugs, stealing drugs, or guns from drug dealers, other
than what you talked about today?
A No. Not that I know of. Or that I could have seen
personally, no.
Q Okay. So, it would be -- what we're talking about is the money
incident with Lusby.
A You know what -- I'm sorry. We -- there's still a lot of things
that we have not talked about.
Q Right.
A Okay. But go on.
Q Okay. Are there -- are we going to talk -- yeah, that's
what I mean. Well, we're sort of running out of time here. But
there are other incidents?
A There's a big block of time that we need to talk about
that I have not even gone into yet. But you guys said that you
only wanted to hear about certain things right now. So, I need to
get into that later, I guess. Q We have information from various narcotics dealers of
the rip-offs where, basically, they were -- searches were done,
narcotics was taken and not booked. Uhm, other than what you have
already told us, were there any instances where you would have
done that, or were involved in that occurring?
AI have to look at the reports to remember. I'm certain
there weren't very many drug rip-offs. There were money
rip-offs, not drug rip-offs.
Q Okay.
A That -- that one question where an informant said that I
offered to sell him a kilo of cocaine.
Q That -- that was the next question.
A And he said uh, that I told him $17,500. And he said --
that's lie. He made that up either to get himself out of trouble,
or whatever. I never offered to sell an informant a kilo of
cocaine and then said, "Nah, you're $500 short. I'm not gonna do
it."
And if you notice, he never said, hey, keep this quiet.
Uh, this is between me and you. Uh, -- I am not gonna -- number
one, I hated to even communicate with that informant, 'cause he
was Coronado's informant. And he was very loyal to Coronado. And
I didn't get along with Coronado. He knew I didn't get along with
Coronado.
And I would never -- an informant? His whole thing,
he's an informant. The minute he's gonna get in trouble, he's
gonna say something. That was a lie. I had never offered to sell
that informant a kilo of cocaine.
Q Ray, when you ordered - out the narcotics -- at one time on the -- on the, uh, pound you ordered - out under the name of
Coronado. Was that because you were pissed off at Coronado?
AI don't know why this turned so big that supposedly I
don't like Coronado. Coronado was not liked by the entire unit.
Two -- three weeks before Coronado was made to leave or left, back
in September -- several weeks before that, myself and Durden--
me, specifically, went up to Lusby and told him, uh, I appreciate
you having me here. I really enjoyed my stay. I would like to
leave. And Lusby said, "Whoa, you know, why you want to leave? I
mean, you're doing such great work."
I said, "You know what, Coronado -- I don't know what it
was, you know, 'cause I was putting a lot of cases -- a lot of my
cases were very good cases. I was bringing a lot of people to
jail. Uh, but Coronado had a problem with it. You know, I took
sort of the limelight away from him. But I never had this, you
know, this thing that was made up that I hated him, where I just
-- Coronado was just the serial number that I used because he
worked the unit. It was not something that I had against him or
-- or -- or vengeance or anything like that.
But I -- I asked to leave that unit. And Lusby said,
"I'll get rid of him before I get rid of you."
Q What other dope switches involved Officer Canister ?
A Just a serial number. It has nothing to do with the officer. It was
just a serial number.
Q And the three kilos, you decided -- why did you go use
another Perez?
A I have no idea.
Q That couldn't have been a coincidence. A No, no. I -- I intentionally got Perez. But I have no
idea why I used that name. I -- I thought that -- I don't know
what I thought. I thought in case they ask me for a -- a -- an
I.D., they'll see the name Perez. But I should have know that,
you know, they're not gonna ask me for I.D. They never do. They
-- and like I said, you could send anybody down there, and they're
not gonna ask for -- uh, back then. I don't know what they're
doing now -- what procedure is now. Back then, they never asked
for any I.D.
Q So, in retrospect, that was a major mistake on your
part?
A Certainly.
Q You should have used some other officer's --
A Anybody's. And -- and in my mind, that's the only way
that Campbell -- I'm sorry, Campbell and Billingslea connected it. Because
there's no way they could have identified me. Like I
said, I had a hat on. I'm surprised they didn't go, can you lift
your hat up or something. You know what I mean. I had the hat on
to my eyebrows.
And I put on these thick glasses that I found.
Coke-bottle glasses. And I never wear, you know, glasses, other
than maybe sunglasses or something like that. You know what I
mean. The only way they connected it is because Perez, Perez. Is
that another Perez? Well, it kind of looked like that other
Perez. You know what I mean.
Q Okay. What did you do with the money you got from the
three kilos?
A Well, there was a lot of things I did. Number one, I gambled a lot of it away. You asked me, on August 6th, that one
day, hopefully when this is all over we can talk about what really happened.
Do you remember that?
DET. HOHAN: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Uhm, and not many people have ever asked me
that since. And there's all kind of addictions and behaviors and
impulses. And you do things out of impulse. Uh, I started
gambling, going to Vegas on the turnarounds, even if it was just
for one day, I had to get out there.
Uh, I did a lot of gambling. I spent money on just
whatever -- stupid little things. Nothing -- as a matter of fact,
the money from the 20 -- uh, the three pounds of, uh-- I never
even really needed it for anything.
Q Wait. The three kilos, or --
A The three kilos. The other money I used it to,
basically, live on. Just spend on this, do that, whatever. I
might have paid --
Q BY MR. MCKESSON: Was any of it placed in the bank?
A Not really. Uhm, if some was placed in the bank-- uh,
a lot of the money that you guys saw the transfer-- there was a
lot of -- can I talk about this?
Q Yeah, go ahead.
A My wife -- we have very good friends. For example, like
you saw some money deposited in late October. I sold my Ford
Explorer. She gave me $4000, or $4500 cash. And she took over
the payments of the truck. Some money like that was deposited.
So, it looked like this money is coming from somewhere.
My wife's best friend opened up a paralegal service. We have a credit card that -- we have really low balances on them.
But the credit limits were like $18,000. And her credit was not
good. But she had just gotten a settlement from where she was
working and was going to open up her own paralegal service. She
asked my wife, "Listen, can I use your credit card. Buy all this
furniture for my office. And then, I will pay you back, you know,
once my business starts going I will pay you -- and I'll pay the
interest on it." And, basically, they were using our credit card. I don't know
if you looked into the credit card. A lot of it was
office furniture, blinds, uh --
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Mmnh-mmnh.
A All of that was to a legal -- uh, to a paralegal company
that she was opening up using -- and then, she would pay us cash
and we'd deposit it. So, it looks like money was being deposited
into, uh, accounts that, you know, where were they coming from. A
lot of it --
Q Why would she pay in cash?
A She -- that's how she gets paid. She works -- she has a
paralegal service.
Q Her own business.
A She had her own business. She opened up the business.
You could put me on a poly. I'm going to get a poly. And this is
actually how it's -- how it's hap- -- how a lot of it happened.
A lot of the -- like there would be charges for $600.
It would be eight tickets to go see a play or something. And
everybody would pay me back cash. Or my wife would get it. And
she would deposit $400. Uhm, very little of that money ever
got -- if it did, it was very little of it got deposited into an account.
Q But, I mean, we're talking about January and February of
'98 when this -- when the dope switch was going high speed. We're
talking about when the dope switching was going on, the vast majority of the dope
switching.
A Oh, yeah. I'm sorry.
Q Uhm, you've got 25,000 in cash deposits and 11,000 cash
used to buy cashiers checks for your house.
A Yeah. You know what, and it showed one being purchased
in San Francisco or something?
DET. HOHAN: That was a mistake.
MR. ROSENTHAL: That was a mistake.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: It was like a San Francisco cashier's check,
but it was actually purchased in Culver City. But, --
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: -- uh, the only reason it was San Francisco
was because the bank had run out of cashiers checks.
THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
MR. ROSENTHAL: So, it had nothing to do with San Francisco.
THE WITNESS: And then, --
MR. ROSENTHAL: But we've got 36,000 in cash in a period of
two months.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. The $8000, uh, that was for -- I'm
sorry, $12,000. That was deposited.
MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. I've got a -- a list. It's, uhm, of
the -- of cash deposits. Let me just mark it. And you can refer
to it. Uh, I've got an exhibit book here that was going to be used in the trial. And this was marked as 38B-1. So this is, uh,
cash deposits. And let's go through really to the -- the period
that we're talking about here is January '98 through February
'98.
And what I have is $25, 540 in cash deposits in the first two months.
A Okay. Do you remember the -- my credit union account?
Q Mmnh-mmnh, yes.
A Did you notice how every payday I'd withdraw like $200. Q
Okay.
A I mean that was money that I was not using. Like I
said, I was using the money that was made from the narcotics --
or I was -- and I don't remember where exactly this came out that my wife had a
problem spending or something like that.
Q Okay.
A That's partially true. I started saving money behind my
wife's back. When you -- do you remember when you interviewed my wife, and
you said, did you that you had -- he had like $6000 in a credit union account?
It was direct deposit.
Q Correct.
A She never knew about that. Because I was trying to save
a certain amount of money, because I didn't want her to know about
it. I had the statements going to the police station. The -- I
don't know if you noticed it. There -- it was actually being
billed -- or sent to -- the statement was being sent to the
station, simply because I didn't want her to get comfortable,
saying, well, we have this certain amount of money. That means we
can spend this on this, when I actually wanted to, you know, do other things with it.
But the money that occurred -- or the things that
occurred late into the '97 time. I'm sorry, I can't turn my next
this way, 'cause I'm stiff.
Q All right. I'll -- I'll go.
A But a lot of that money was saved. I actually did save
that money. I won't say that, uh, none of this was part of that
money. Because I still had some of that residual money. You got
to remember anything that I -- in '95, the -- the large sum of
money that I got from the March 2nd, was after all of this.
You see what I'm saying.
Q Right. Yeah.
A The -- the narcotics that was taken early on, were very
little amounts. Uh, well, other than the one that -- the first
one that occurred was like $10,000 -- $5000 total. And that could
be spent very quicly.
But the March 2nd was later on. And that -- that's what
I gonna say that that amount, I never even knew why I even really
needed it. I really didn't need it. And I did it anyway.
And I don't know if it was the impulsive thing or what.
But March 2nd was well after. We had to repurchase the house. We
were, you know, -- why I did it? I don't know. But this other
money here was -- a lot of it was actually saved-up money that we
had -- a lot of it I saved up, 'cause I didn't want my wife
thinking, okay, we got this in the bank. That means I can go buy
a new pair of shoes.
Not that she's a -- a compulsive shopper or anything
like, 'cause she's not. You know, and I -- I told you guys this from the very beginning. Denise does know about nothing. She
doesn't. She didn't.
Q All right. Let's -- let's stop. 'Cause we'll able to
go into finances later. But one question I think everyone will be
interested in, and we only have a couple of minutes, is do you
know anything about the bank robbery with Mack? Were you involved
in any way?
A I've -- I've said this from the beginning. And early
on, in fact, when the FBI agents came to interview me, without an
attorney, I was interviewed. I offered to take a polygraph right
then and there. They said, "No, that's not necessary." I did not
know anything prior, during, or after. When David Mack was
arrested, I was as surprised -- in fact, my wife called me, uh,
because there was a press release. And I hadn't heard about it.
I was as surprised as anybody.
Uh, supposedly, we went to Vegas together two days or
three days after the bank robbery.
Q Right.
A He gave no indication that he had done anything. As a
matter of fact, we were calling him cheap because, uh, he only put
in like ten bucks towards the gas. And, you know, and then, I
used my truck. And, in fact, he was not gonna go to Vegas. The
day before -- 'cause we met at the station. We all met at the
station to go.
He, uhm -- he decided that he was gonna go at the last
minute. But I did not know anything about the bank robbery. Not
involved in anything about the bank robbery. Did not have any
knowledge. He never said anything to me about a bank robbery. Any of that nature.
Q The Vegas trip you brought somebody with you?
A Yes.
Q Who?
A Uh, myself, uh, Sammy Martin. Him and, uh, Quesada. Q
Okay. Uhm, so, you don't -- you have no idea what he
did with all that money?
A None.
Q Now, you have to understand there is -- there is a
concern here. Because it seems just remarkable, frankly, that you
and Mack were partners, friends, involved in a shooting together,
and both of you independently -- you know, one became a bank
robber, and one became a drug dealer. That seems like a
remarkable coincidence.
And you're saying it is a coincidence?
A I'm going to be put on a polygraph, believe me.
Q Yes.
A I will -- I will --
Q You are.
A I will be -- I'm putting everything on the table.
Q All right. What about -- what --
A You guys think that David Mack is a very, very good
friend of mine, for some reason. Before, uh, we went on that
Vegas trip, and after I stopped working with him in Narcotics, I
have seen David Mack maybe four or five times. Once was on a
cruise. One was we got together as a family, uh, wives and
family, to -- I'm not -- David Mack is a friend and a person who
saved my life. I don't know if you know about that incident. Q Yes.
A I had a gun to my head. And he did what, you know --
what, you know.
Q So, that O.S.I -- O.I.S. report was true?
A Oh, that's very accurate and very true, yes. All of it. I mean,
that's all true. Uhm, --
Q But --
A -- so, I considered him a very good friend who saved my
life. Was I involved in that bank robbery? No. Was this a big
coincidence that we both end up in this kind of trouble, or he
ends up in that type of trouble, and I -- it's a very big
coincidence.
Q BY DET. SEGURA: What about Sammy Martin, Ray?
A "Sammy Martin was not involved in anything. And, again
-- I know I keep saying it. But I know I'm going to be put on
polygraph. Sammy Martin is not involved in anything.
Q That you know of? Because it seems like you had
something going here. And Mack had something going here. And we
have suspicions about Sammy.
A I'm going to be put on a polygraph examination and you
can ask me directly.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A From me. And me and Sammy were very good friends. He,
I do consider a very good friend. Mack was a friend from a while
ago, but we really didn't communicate anymore. I don't believe
Sammy Martin is involved in anything. Not in narcotics, not, uh,
a bank robbery, uh, none of it.
Q Okay. Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: One -- one question is, you knew that there was
suspicions against you as a result of your relationship with Mack, after Mack was
arrested for the bank robbery?
A I was stupid.
Q He was arrested in November '97. December '97. And
within a couple of weeks you start stealing narcotics from
Property Division, and dealing it. I mean, --
A This is after the FBI told me that they would probably
follow me, simply because they feel that -- they had found a
picture of me and him at his house.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A And that they feel, not that I was involved, but that if
he is gonna call anyone and tell them where the money is, I'm the
most likely that they would call.
Q Even with that in mind --
A And you -- you -- I know -- oh, I'm sorry. I know it's
-- it's hard to understand. But there's something about
compulsive behaviors. There's something about you get put in a
position. And -- and you just go, "I'm gonna do it."
And it becomes a compulsive behavior. Just -- it's
something. I knew -- I even thought the FBI was following me.
They said they were gonna follow me. Simply because they thought
I would go find the money.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A What in the world led me to do that, I have no idea. No
idea. I will also say this. Before I met Officer Durden -- and
his girlfriend -- you know his girlfriend is a P.S.R. Used to be
a P.S.R. His ex-girlfriend Jeanine. Q Yeah. Go on.
A Before he got married to his girl, he used to go with -- he was dating
a P.S.R. Uh, Jeanine -- I don't know her last name now. Her name is Jeanine.
Uh, he was working Rampart Patrol.
And her and my wife were working together, obviously.
And she kept bugging my wife, Nino really wants to come
to the unit. He really wants to come to the unit.
I didn't like Nino. I never really liked Nino. We were
-- and you know how you guys were wondering whether we were real
friends, we're not friends. We just worked together. I never
went out with him -- went out clubbing or anything that he was
saying. I never did.
I didn't want him in the unit. I just didn't like his
attitude. I just never did.
Q What didn't you like about his attitude?
A He came back from saying, you know, he -- he was a
probationer down in 77th C.R.A.S.H. Or he worked those last few
months down in 77th C.R.A.S.H. He had the 77th C.R.A.S.H. tattoo. He came down
to Rampart, you know, man, 77th, this is how we do
it. That type of attitude, you know. Wearing the 77th C.R.A.S.H.
jacket at Rampart now. You know, just something I just didn't
really -- you know, you see each other, you're kind of standoffish
when you're walking down the hallway, you look at each other like.
But, my girlfriend, or my wife and his girlfriend knew
each other. She kept asking my wife to get him in the unit. So,
basically, -- and the way unit works, is you either sponsor
somebody or you vote them in. I sponsored him in. I said -- when
you sponsor somebody in, that means you will work with them. If he screws up, you'll get rid of him.
That type of thing. I mean, get rid of him out of the
unit. You know what I'm saying, listen, we tried it. It didn't
work out. And you have to go. So, when you sponsor somebody, you
have to work with them. That is your partner, 'cause you're
vouching for him and -- I'm sorry.
Uh, up until before, I believe it was May of 1997, I had
never ever taken $20 from a narcotics dealer. Never ever sold any
narcotics. Never committed a crime. I don't know what it was.
But Durden just had this way of saying things that was kind of
very influential. He would say things to you, like -- like the
very first time we had made a bust. And I told him, "Hey, book
the money and the drugs. I'm gonna write the report."
And he calls me up and he goes, "Man, there's like a
thousand dollars here." And I'm like, "Yeah." "Well, shit, we
ain't got to book all of it." And he said it in a manner which
everybody's doing it. He said in that way that -- and I was like,
"Man, book the money." And he goes, "Nah, I ain't -- I ain't
booking all this money."
And I was like, "All right. Whatever." And he didn't
book all the money. And -- but, then, he gave me half. And I
took it.
Q BY DET. HOHAN: Do you think this is something that
Durden came from 77th with, maybe that he started doing it down
there? You mentioned before that 77th C.R.A.S.H. had problems.
They would meet --
MR. MCKESSON: I think he said all C.R.A.S.H. units had
problems. Q BY DET. HOHAN: Yeah. He did say that. But the one unit
I remember specifically that you talked about in this loop stuff
and going up to the Academy and talking everything out on the
benches was 77th C.R.A.S.H?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And do you think that --
A A lot of that too was we had liaison with now Sgt.
Ortiz. 'Cause he went down there and started running the 77th
C.R.A.S.H. Our Rampart C.R.A.S.H. sergeant went from there -- Lt.
Helmsley -- Helmsley -- lieutenant turned captain who worked
Metro.
DET. TYNDALL: Hillman.
THE WITNESS: Hillman. I guess, uh, that he used to work for
him or something in Metro, or something. And he wanted to go --
go down there and run the C.R.A.S.H. unit down there.
So, we started developing more liaison with other
C.R.A.S.H. units talking about how things are going, and what
happened -- what actually happened and what was done, you know.
It was sort of like this is a meeting that stays -- everything
stays here. That type of thing.
DET. HOHAN: Okay.
Q BY DET. TYNDALL: Ray, are you going to be able to
provide specifics in regards to that?
A In regards to --
Q You're talking about meetings with other C.R.A.S.H.
Units, citywide. You also talked about, uh, some other
shootings. Sonny -- .
Q BY DET. HOHAN: Sonny Garcia shooting? A I can give you -- I can give you a lot of things that we talk about. I
wasn't there to see it. All I can tell you is
scuttlebutt, you know, hearsay.
Q BY DET. TYNDALL: So, it would be -- yeah. Okay.
A They talk about it all the time. I mean, if -- if you
give me a shooting that occurred, I can tell you what was talked
about at the Short Stop. Or if we talked about it at the benches,
I can tell you what things -- uh, I remember there was a --
there's a guy down at, uh, 77th C.R.A.S.H. who got into a
shooting. His dad works Metro. He's a squared-away kid. He's
young. Maybe has five or six years on the job. Got into a
shooting. That was not a good shooting. Uh, and I'm only going
by what was all said to us. And -- and the guy, I think, and, in
fact, I think the guy went to Metro already. The officer that got
into that shooting.
Was I there? No. I remember that it was a chase. The
guy falls or something -- gets shot. And then, they clean it up.
That's what I heard. That's what we -- they talked about. And
that's what I heard. But I didn't -- I wasn't there. I can't
tell -- you know. I don't know why they would say they cleaned it
up and it was actually a good shooting, you know what I mean.
Q Mmnh-mmnh.
A Why -- why go backwards. I don't -- I don't see that.
Q One question on the pay/owe sheet that were seized from
Quesada.
A Coincidence.
Q R.P. stands for Rampart Police. I never met -- uh, I
arrested her brother on July 31st. I had never met either one them before then. That was just a coincidence. R.P. is probably
Rampart Police
Q All right.
Q BY SGT. SEGURA: One last thing. Then, again, the other
thing you were saying there's a few other things that you're gonna tell us,
that it doesn't involve any other police officers or any -- any other -- any one
that you haven't told us, criminally? A No.
Q Okay. Uh, in fact, all of them is with Durden.
Q Okay.
Q BY MR. ROSENTHAL: Okay. We'll, uhm -- what we'll do is
-- it's 1:02. So, let's stop the interview now. And we will,
uhm, make arrangements to set up another date. And, uh, we're off
the record.
(Off the record at 1:02 p.m.)
-oo0oo-

STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
) ss
COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )

I, the undersigned, say that I have read the
foregoing deposition and hereby declare under penalty of
perjury the foregoing is true and correct.
Executed this ______ day of _____________________, 1999, at
_________________________, California.



_____________________________________
D E C L A R A N T
STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
) ss
COUNTY OF SAN MATEO )

I, SARA A. MAHAN, C.S.R. #10647, a Certified Shorthand
Reporter in and for the County of Los Angeles, State of
California, do hereby certify:
That prior to being examined, the witness named in the
foregoing deposition, Rafael Antonio Perez, was by me duly sworn
to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
That said deposition was taken before me at the time and
place set forth and was taken down by me in shorthand and
thereafter reduced to computerized
transcription under my direction and supervision, and I
hereby certify the foregoing deposition is a full, true and
correct transcript of my shorthand notes so taken.
I further certify that I am neither counsel for nor
related to any party to said action nor in any way interested in
the outcome thereof.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name
this ____ day of __________________, 1999.



____________________________________
Sara A. Mahan
Certified Shorthand Reporter No.10647